Complex Trauma, Cortisol Chaos & the Autoimmune Connection | Justin Janoska

Justin Janoska: [00:00:00] People don't like to hear this, but most trauma that people experience is within the home. It happens within the parents. Complex trauma is a series of repetitive, prolonged exposure to events or experiences that are distressing and destabilizing. If I'm working with someone who has an autoimmune disease, or even not actually, white blood cell count can be a really good indicator or a saliva cortisol because we see this even with people who have complex trauma or childhood trauma that they haven't really resolved and it shows up years later in life.

Dr. Brighten: Why does healing autoimmune disease trigger old trauma in some people? Justin Janoski 

Narrator: is the founder of the Autoimmune Revolution and a powerful voice in the world of autoimmune healing and women's health. Inspired by his own mother's battle with Hashimoto's, Justin has dedicated his career to helping women reverse autoimmune disease, PCOS, and chronic illness naturally and holistically 

Justin Janoska: With a master's in human nutrition, advanced studies in mind, body medicine and training in trauma counseling and medical Qigong, 

Narrator: he brings a truly integrative [00:01:00] approach to healing.

Justin's mission is clear 

Justin Janoska: to challenge what we've been told is possible, and to help women reclaim their health, their power, and their lives. When you feel your heartbeat, it feels like it's on a consistent. Pattern and time, but it's actually not. When you lose that, then that's a, a sign of like risk for, 

Dr. Brighten: there's a growing body of evidence showing that stress and trauma can have a major impact on the development of autoimmunity.

Can you talk to us a bit about what is happening physiologically to contribute to that? 

Justin Janoska: To me, it comes down to. 

Dr. Brighten: Welcome back to the Dr. Brighton Show. I'm your host, Dr. Jolene Brighton. I'm board certified in Naturopathic endocrinology, a nutrition scientist, a certified sex counselor, and a certified menopause specialist.

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Why does healing autoimmune disease trigger old trauma in some people? 

Justin Janoska: So the first thing that comes to mind for me when I hear this is when. PE people are going to their conventional doctor and, and [00:03:00] any doctor for that matter. What I hear a lot of the time is they're given a ton of protocols and things to do for their disease.

And first off, that can be overwhelming and in and of itself. Mm-hmm. And that it's very stressful for people who are already under a torn of stress. Now what I think actually happens and is, is people will tell me this too, but there is a lot of this sort of Yeah. Medical gaslighting and there's also this sort of issue where doctors are, um, being dismissive and they are blowing you off and, you know, shooting you out the door.

And while we could get into why that is and, and say, well, it's just 'cause they have 15 minutes in the office with you, all that stuff, it's, it can be re-triggering for people who have had, say for instance, a parent who was absent, um, neglectful. Uh, unavailable emotionally. Mm-hmm. Or a, uh, parent who had a sort of author, um, authoritative parenting style.

Yeah. Harsh, critical, things like that. [00:04:00] So, uh, that can mirror those sort of problems and, you know, re-trigger old wounds. And I think that is a piece of this that can, you know, interfere with people's ability to heal. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. If that 

Justin Janoska: makes sense. 

Dr. Brighten: No, it does. And it's interesting because I had come across this on your social media, and I think a lot of women can resonate with this, even if you haven't suffered trauma before.

I, you know, we make a joke, many of my friends like, raise your hand if your never gaslit you, and nobody puts their hands up because we've all experienced medical gaslighting. When you consider the DSM. In my lifetime still had hysteria as a diagnosis. Like those practitioners are still educating future practitioners.

And so there really is this theme in women's health that like, you should be able to take pain. Pain is normal. You're, you know, we hear all the time, your labs are normal when you feel awful or you feel absolutely awful and you're told that's just part of being a mom. Welcome to being a woman. Oh, you're [00:05:00] just not, you know, exercising enough.

Have you tried losing weight? Uh, and I think all of that in itself can actually be traumatic for women. But for women, what I'm hearing you say, who have this past history of maybe having parents who were not present mm-hmm. Who were dismissive or even overly controlling. This is an outright abuse. Like, but these are patterns that.

Can affect the nervous system and this can get brought back up as you try to heal your autoimmune disease. 

Justin Janoska: Yeah, exactly. And I would caution, uh, to say the word trauma because not everybody identifies with that. Mm-hmm. And a lot of people don't actually, which is why I didn't really say that. Although if we're honest about it, having a parent who is like that and having developmental trauma like that is indeed trauma for a lot of people.

They just don't see it that way. So. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. No, I appreciate you saying that. 'cause I think trauma is such an odd word right now, the way it's being used. Like, right. People, there's people who are like, everything is [00:06:00] trauma and then there's people that are like, stop blowing up. Everything is not trauma. And it feels like a lot of push and pull.

Mm-hmm. Where people are hesitant. 'cause people don't want, you don't wanna believe that you were abused or whether it was by your parents and things like that. So I think it is a tricky word. So I appreciate you really elaborating on that. I brought up the, the notion that labs are normal. Women often hear this like, your labs are normal, and you're like, but I don't feel normal.

Justin Janoska: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Brighten: Can you talk through some of the labs that can be showing that you're dealing with chronic stress, that maybe the nervous system or the body is in overwhelm? 

Justin Janoska: Absolutely. So I, I think what I hear a lot, uh, I'll preface with this. A lot of the time I hear people say, I don't have stress, or, um, I'm fine.

I don't have any issues, whatever that is. And my contention is that people are just so acclimated to feeling in a stressful way. Mm-hmm. And that it's their new normal in a sense. And so they, of course, they're not gonna see it as [00:07:00] stressful. And I just go, cool, maybe you're right and let's believe that I'm not gonna say that I'm right and you're wrong, kind of thing.

Um, it's your truth and that's totally valid. What, what I would say is let's look at some labs that can kind of, you know, show us, um, from a evidence-based standpoint if that's actually the case or not. So what I find with clients, and I run many things, but I think there's like maybe four or five that I kinda lean into to kind of prove my point in a sense, or to show them that, hey, you know what, you're in a deep survival state for whatever reason, and let's, you know, here's the confirmation of that.

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Brighten: So 

Justin Janoska: the first thing would be, uh, well, if I'm working with someone who has an autoimmune disease, or even not actually white blood cell count can be a really good indicator because I, I don't know about you Jillian, but I see a lot of people with, um, a very low-ish white blood cell count because they're just wiped out.

I mm-hmm. I mean, it was stressed for years and it reflects into that. So they're in a, [00:08:00] they're in a, uh, an immunocompromised state. There would be also a situation where you might have low sex hormone.

You might, you might be in a situation where you have low sex hormone binding globulin levels, or, um, albumin is another biomarker because they come, that comes out of the liver and when you're under a lot of stress, you stop making those proteins. Mm-hmm. Um, heart rate variability is a, is a really important one.

Probably the most important one because it's a proxy for para parasympathetic tone and state. And, uh, the higher the HRV, the better you are usually and, and adapting to what's going on around you when you're looking at thyroid issues, uh, and hypothyroidism, or even Hashimoto's. I'm sure you're well aware, like reverse T three to me is very helpful because, um, that's gonna go up in stressful states.

Mm-hmm. What I think is even more useful. Is when you do a sort of comparison where you look at free T three to reverse T three ratios, because I don't know if you've seen the [00:09:00] research on this, but as stress. Worsens in somebody, the reliability and accuracy of TSHT four and T three go way down. Mm-hmm.

But the free T three to reverse T three ratio, according to one study I'm thinking about stays intact and it's still reliable. So I just went, well, let's just do that math and figure it out, because that can give you an idea of like whether or not you're in a, what they call, you know, cellular hypothyroidism or the cell danger response kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. I, I think there's a lot of debate around that, and it's not probably a clinically, you know, valid test necessarily, but I, I just go, it's another way to assess the situation. Um, and then finally would be, of course, uh, saliva cortisol. Mm-hmm. Because that's just, uh, you know, the gold standard for measuring that and that will.

Generally be very off track, whether it's high all day, low all day, somewhere in between. And somebody who's been chronically stressed. And we see this even with people who have complex trauma or childhood trauma that they haven't really resolved and it shows up years later in [00:10:00] life. Mm-hmm. Same with CRP, creactive protein, that shows up in some people's blood 20 years later.

So there's a lot of different ways of looking at it, but to me those are the top five I, I think I would say. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. I wanna talk more about HRV and cortisol because those definitely, if you have a past history of trauma, or even your mother had trauma in utero. Mm-hmm. So you were in your mama's belly and she experienced high levels of stress that can affect those for life.

But to your point about reverse T three, I think, you know, it's, it is a test that not a lot of conventional doctors are running, however. What we know from the research they've done studies where people have major traumatic physical events like a car accident. And what they found is, is that if reverse T three is elevated, so grossly elevated, that's a predictor of a poor outcome.

Like they don't believe this person is necessarily going to survive this event because of the level of stress the body is conveying. And that's what that reverse T three does. I think. Um, sometimes people think like, oh, reverse T three is like. [00:11:00] You know, why would we worry about that? And it's because, you know, oftentimes as you look at the full thyroid panel, so TSH you said, mm-hmm.

That's a brain hormone. T four is what the thyroid makes. We convert it to T three. But if the body doesn't feel safe, it pushes worse. T three, I like to call it the hibernation hormone, right? Because it's like gain weight, get really cranky, have no energy hibernate like a bear sleep 15 hours and you're still not done sleeping 'cause you're so exhausted.

So I appreciate you bringing up that marker. I think it's a really important one, especially when you see the elevated salivary cortisol or the HRV issue. So I wanna talk about heart rate variability a little bit more. Mm-hmm. Because I think some people listening, they're not as familiar with it. Mm-hmm.

So can you explain what that is and what people should be looking for? Like what are ideals? 

Justin Janoska: Yeah. So HRV is the variation in time intervals between consecutive heartbeats and milliseconds. So when you feel your heartbeat. It feels like it's on a consistent pattern. [00:12:00] Mm-hmm. And time, but it's actually not.

If you measure it, it's like 0.8 1.2, 1.1. Right. And that's good. You want to have that variation. When you lose that, then that's a, a sign of like risk for chronic. They actually, I think in the research talk about this in terms of how it correlates with increased risk of cardiovascular events and things like that.

So it's a pretty serious thing. And you know, I, I see a lot of people with, um, like my mother who has Hashimoto's and type one diabetes, like her HIV was very low for a long time. And that's expected for people, not just, um, with autoimmunity per se, sometimes. Mm-hmm. I shouldn't say all the time, but it's there.

But for people who've just been, again, living chronic. Life, uh, stressful lifestyles. Yeah. Not necessarily trauma, although that's part of it. We see those patterns and studies too. Mm-hmm. So I, I think it's a good thing for each of us to just test anyway with the Oura ring, the whoop band, you know, HRV monitors, whatever you want to do just to get a baseline, 

Dr. Brighten: not [00:13:00] me with my watch and my Aura Band.

Justin Janoska: Yeah. Both things, right? 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: The challenge with the, now that, now that we mention it here, uh, the challenge with that stuff is that there's so much variability throughout the day with that mm-hmm. Is that you can't really get a good sense of accuracy with those things. Yeah. If you look at all day, um, what you need to do, because, you know, it could be high when you're exercising.

Mm-hmm. And it might be low when it's when you're not, or whatever it is. So I think the best way to kind of discern. Whether or not you're in a, uh, high or low state, you might say survival state or not, is to, what I advise people to do is to measure first thing in the morning. You know, after you go to the, to the bathroom, before you drink anything, um, before you even like really do anything.

Mm-hmm. Just get a baseline idea and do that every day for a while, and you'll get a sense of kind of where you stand. Um, but to me that's the, the truth bomb right there, whether or not you're stressed or not. Mm-hmm. If you're telling yourself that you're not stressed. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. So, H HR V you [00:14:00] said your mom is low.

What is considered low? So if people are looking at their hrv, what is our, like, ideal that we wanna see? 

Justin Janoska: Yeah, it's tough because I, I've seen different metrics for different devices being used. Mm-hmm. So it, it's hard to say what I, I could give you a number and be like, well, it's above 70, it's good according to what?

Right. Um, if I, I don't remember offhand what she was using, but I, I, I'm, I'm. Cons, I'm a little skeptical to, uh, give a number because it's also relative to what you're using. So fair different ways. Fair. Yeah. It's hard to say exactly, but from my understanding of it, what I've seen is, you know, above 70, 80 up there is good.

Mm-hmm. If you're like in the thirties, forties, maybe a little lower, that's probably, um, a concern. And it doesn't mean like you're gonna die, it just means that you have to, uh, probably take steps to, you know, stress, uh, de-stress a bit and relax a bit more in whatever way you can. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. What ways has the science shown can be [00:15:00] efficacious in improving heart rate variability?

Justin Janoska: Yeah, I mean, the simplest way to explain it is probably to do nothing, although that's not realistic to do nothing 

Dr. Brighten: all day. Yeah. But if you don't exercise, that can have a negative impact on your HRV. Yeah, of course, of course. 

Justin Janoska: Right. So I, I like to call, what I like, what I'd like to say is the three S's, silence, solitude, and stillness.

Mm-hmm. That to me is a simple way to explain to somebody what they can do to, um, give their body that signal that it's not in danger anymore. Now it can look a million different ways. It can, it can, you know, involve yoga and Pilates or, um, Qigong. Like what? I'm into a lot these things. I know. I 

Dr. Brighten: see all your Qigong videos.

Yeah. And I'm like, the man moves so slow. How is this possible? 

Justin Janoska: Yeah. Meditation and walking nature. I mean, really anything that gets you outta your head. Mm-hmm. I think that's the challenge is we're, we're so stuck in our head and there's many reasons for that, um, because it's easier to be up there than down here.

But if we can get into our body [00:16:00] more, that would be the best thing to do. And again, then it's like, well, duh, I know that. What, what does that look like? And that's all about creating the right prescription for somebody to figure out how much is it good enough time? What does it look like? Is it something you enjoy?

I. That kind of thing. I don't have a prescription of like, you need to do meditation for an hour a day and do some Qigong like me once a week or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. It is. Doesn't work that way, you know? But I think anything that conveys a message to your body that you're not being a busy mom for a minute, working, running around all day, zipping around, you gotta just sit intention to slow down a bit, um, in a way that feels kind of enjoyable and peaceful.

Dr. Brighten: How do you stop being a busy mom? I 

Justin Janoska: wonder? Yeah. 

Dr. Brighten: I don't know. I haven't figured it out 12 years. Well, that's 

Justin Janoska: the thing, right? I'm well aware of all that because that's mostly who I work with, those types of women, and I just go, good, do that thing. I'm not telling you to quit your job or move somewhere else or divorce this person because, you know, it's really about how do we tip the scale in the other direction a little bit, [00:17:00] because you have to, if you don't mm-hmm.

Your body's gonna literally shut down and it'll tell you. It'll basically force you to, yeah. So let's take preemptive measures now so that doesn't happen. And you don't have to be sidelined and be like, well, now I can't get up and take my kid to soccer practice or drive him to school. Mm-hmm. Right. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah.

But finding, I, I hear you saying like, you know, the meditation, like these different practices, but finding those moments of peace throughout the day. Like if you are in the pickup line at school, waiting for your child, I'm somebody, you put me in the car and I'm immediately stressed. I'm like, I hate being in the car more than anything.

But it is something that when I find myself feeling impatient as I wait at a stoplight, I'm like, take a breath. Just here's an opportunity to notice your body to take a breath. Mm-hmm. And finding those little moments. I wanna talk about cortisol because there is this, I've called it the mom curve. Um, it's an interesting phenomenon that I've observed in moms, and I swear it's the newborn baby starts the training of your cortisol, where [00:18:00] cortisol's low in the morning.

And then it spikes in the evening. Now, if your child is in school, I will see, without a doubt, it's like from three to like 7:00 PM your cortisol is up, it's your child gets home. And now we are moving towards bedtime routine. Um, I don't know if you have kids, but bedtime routine I think is probably the most stressful part of any parent's day, but we see these changes in cortisol.

You brought up salivary cortisol being a sign that you are overly stressed. What are some of the other patterns that we can see 

Justin Janoska: on that test in particular? 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Janoska: Yeah, I agree with that. I've seen that a lot too, and I run a lot of that. Mm-hmm. Because I'm really curious to see what their, their, their, um, pattern is looking like.

Um, sometimes I'll see people who are really flatlined all day. Mm-hmm. Uh, I actually do see a lot of that more times than not. And to me, that is really, uh, a, a, a. You know, a perfect [00:19:00] example of just your body has been through a lot and for a lot of reasons, but usually it's because of personality traits and patterns like we're talking about here, which is tethered to early adversity and things like that.

I mean, that's sort of the connection I like to make and show to people because it's not like you just got stressed last week because, you know, you were at the DMV or whatever, you get the grocery line for too long. Oh my God. 

Dr. Brighten: DMV another very stressful place. Yeah, 

Justin Janoska: exactly. You know, but it's, it's something that's been accumulated for a long time.

Mm-hmm. And un unfortunately, what happens is that when you look at some of the data that when you had, when you have a low, your hypercortisolism, as they call it, when it's that low, uh, when you have a stressful event, you're not gonna see on this test, but they actually show how your stress response or cortisol spike.

Will be much higher than it would be for an average person. Mm-hmm. Right? Who doesn't have, you know, a flat line cortisol level, so. It's really just a [00:20:00] reflection of kind of what's been going on in your history and your life. Yeah, so I think that pattern is very common. I think, like we said just now in the, in the later part of the day, in the afternoon evening, it's very common and just high all day too.

I mean mm-hmm. The low corti awakening response is usually what I see a lot of time, and that's. Kind of the, the, the most obvious sign. Yeah. But either way, any way you look at it, I just go, there's obviously a problem here, but I think the, the, the clear sign that it's been chronic for too, too long is when it's like rock bottom.

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. And for people who are listening that are like, what are we talking about? Cortisol curve. So cortisol is a hormone that should spike first thing in the morning. It opposes melatonin. So what everybody knows, melatonin, sleep hormone, it should come down at night. So we spike cortisol in the morning.

That's that awakening response. So first thing, wake up, get your cortisol up, and then you will come down during the day. Sometimes there's a little extra blip, and then it should be lowest in the evening as we're winding down and going to sleep. So as you're talking about, [00:21:00] you know, having not enough, not enough in the morning.

Having it flatline throughout the day, which we often see with chronic stress because, and it's not that unless you have Addison's disease. Mm-hmm. So people know that's a really rare but very significant autoimmune disease. You're still making cortisol, but your body's really smart and is like cortisol could, is deadly if there's too much, if it literally leads brain cells lamest thing ever as a person who's been chronically stressed in the past.

Um, but with that, you know, it's often that your body is converting it to cortisone and it's inactivating it. And again, you know, it's like the reverse T three, this is your body's mechanism for saying, we cannot survive if we stand under so much stress. We must start converting hormones that really feel like they're working against you.

But I mean, making you go to bed and get away from other people who are stressful, like that's a really good thing when, when you are in a healing phase, right? Because your body isn't necessarily knowing. Are we super stressed out because of our psychological state? [00:22:00] Or are we actually literally under attack and we do need to hide from that?

Justin Janoska: Absolutely. Right. 

Dr. Brighten: So I've seen you talk about the four pillars that you recommend for people healing autoimmune disease, and I'd love you to just talk through these pillars of what people should be considering. 'cause to me, when I looked at them, I'm like, they're really like buckets of what should be considered.

And it's not universal for everyone in terms of like that's absolutely your trigger. And that's something I like about how you talk about it. It's like this is what to consider to investigate, right? But it's not necessarily gonna be true for everyone. 

Justin Janoska: Right. And that's why auto autoimmune disease is very complicated.

Mm-hmm. There's a lot of, lot of parts and, uh, there's not really one thing that's getting you to that state. Right. So I, I think of it in this sort of bio-psychosocial model. It, which is looking at not just the biological factors like the cortisol and the sex [00:23:00] chones and the thyroid and the immune system.

Um, and then there's the environmental factors and exposures, which mm-hmm. Which, you know, the mold, the EMFs, the candida metals, et cetera. Most people will focus on those two things Yeah. And how they influence each other. And that's great, that's necessary needed. But I think what's happening in the space now is people are frustrated and they're not getting the results that they want because they're putting other eggs in one basket, in a sense.

Mm-hmm. Thinking that the protocol for the mold or the gut health or whatever it is, is gonna save them and fix them, which it helps them for a while. But then they're back to score one after a few months. Yeah. You, you go through that honeymoon phase, it's very common. And my observation is that that's only half the equation.

You're still missing the social factors and the psychological factors, which are mm-hmm. It's a big term, but like, what does that mean? Well, social factors has more to do with your relationships and, you know, who's the person you're dating you in this, you know, toxic marriage or whatever that is. Things like that.

And also, of course, that relates to [00:24:00] psychology and, uh, trauma and things like that. So what's going on through your head all day? The thoughts, the just the thoughts, the um, stuck emotions. Things are still harboring that you've suppressed. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of that. And it's so common that I just go, if you don't address those two things, then the protocols aren't gonna do anything.

And that's been my experience. Yeah. It's just not enough because you're literally reinforcing. The stress response, the cortisol issues, the HRV that's plummeting, all those things. Mm-hmm. And you can't, um, you know, the immune system is obviously a very important part of this. You have to control, but it's predicated on the nervous system.

So if you're not getting that under control 

Dr. Brighten: mm-hmm. 

Justin Janoska: And figuring out why or what you have to do to do that. Then nothing really ever changes. And this is sort of the, the problem I've seen. So from my perspective it's, it's all of it potentially, right? Yeah. But more times than not, there are deficits and things that have not been addressed in within ourselves.

It's all the intangible parts of healing that people have, have [00:25:00] avoided, I think. Mm-hmm. Or not knowing about. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. And I agree with you. I see a lot of focus on what the environmental triggers can be, what infections you might have, and with patients, you know, they never like it when I say this, but healing the physical body is the easy part.

And I always take the approach of like, let's, let's get you over the hurdle of some of these things that are really bogging down the system with the idea that you will eventually graduate out of working with me because trauma. Mental, emotional like support, like that is not my arena, but it is absolutely.

Whenever patients are like, oh my God is healed, like I'm done. I am like, congratulations. Now the real work starts because now that your physical body is feeling safe, now we've gotta get into the nervous system. Mm-hmm. Because otherwise, if you don't address those components, you will, you will find that you have a susceptibility, right.

Because. You and I might get the same exposure for food poisoning. And there are variable, you know, [00:26:00] variety of reasons I should say as to why I'll get sick and you won't. And nervous system dysfunction is absolutely one of those key things. And I think sometimes people think it's like, well just do I feel stressed out and frazzled or do I not?

And yet it can be patterns that we're not even conscious of. Right? I like to use the analogy of like. When we all started driving a car, we were constantly scanning the environment. We were constantly like looking around and worrying, and maybe you're still doing that now, but, um, you know, when do I put on my blinker?

Should I, should I be tapping the brakes? Like, what's happening? And then over time, your brain being so adaptive, you don't think about all of those things. They're automatic and they're happening. And I think the same thing happens a lot of times when we've had adversities, challenges, struggles, and even trauma, whether it be mild trauma or larger traumas.

Mm-hmm. So with all that said, yeah, people listening right now are like, well, great. It's not just about healing my gut. Um, what are some of the first steps [00:27:00] that they can take to start recognizing this and addressing this? 

Justin Janoska: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with that because I say the same thing. Uh, healing the body is the easiest part.

It's working on what's inside that you avoided or ignored or don't know about. That's the hardest part. And that's why it's like you have to be open-minded and curious. Mm-hmm. So maybe that's the first place to begin. Be open-minded and curious. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: Right. If you're not willing to do that, then nothing's gonna change.

Right. But it's a choice you make. And that's why it really is about making a choice to see things with new eyes. Because what I see a lot is, you know, your disease, your diagnosis, your PCOS, whatever you have tells we story not just about your cells mm-hmm. But of yourself if you listen. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Janoska: You didn't get here overnight.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: But there's a whole history and a biography that you have to explore. So that's the first thing that I have clients do and, and people I work with. Because that will give you insights to things that you've forgotten about or didn't know about because you're actually sitting down and writing. It's like what we do with people with [00:28:00] trauma and, um, written exposure therapy, for example, or a narrative exposure therapy.

And how this is very useful because when we get things down on paper mm-hmm. It brings up things and we have awareness and that's cathartic in and of itself, but. 

Dr. Brighten: Is, so is that, uh, what you have people do is you, you start having them write their timeline of their life? Or what does it look like? Uh, 

Justin Janoska: yes, in a sense there's two different ways of doing it.

Actually. I, I like to have a visual component of this. Mm-hmm. Where I will say, you know, dry draw a, I'll have a visual component where they draw on a line, uh, and the beginning is their birth. And the other point is where they are now their age, and then thinking about. Again, it's subjective, right? It's all about observing.

And there's no right or wrong. You can't mess it up. But where were there major events in your life? Maybe at COVID, you, your mom died, you went through a divorce, you traveled and you were, um, you know, away for a year, whatever it is. Yeah. And think about those kind of major events. If there's trauma you, uh, uh, that you want to identify, put that in there [00:29:00] too.

Mm-hmm. And the thing about symptoms and when they started to show up, it takes a lot of, you know, thinking. And that's why it's tough for some people who maybe can't think that far back or, um, have brain fog or things like that. Yeah. So it can be challenging, but that opens the door at least to exploring that.

And then you can even tie in coping strategies and mechanisms, which I talk a lot about. Mm-hmm. Because the perfectionism, the people pleasing, the peacemaking, minimizing your own needs and all that stuff doesn't happen by accident. So do you 

Dr. Brighten: feel like those things are basically your body trying to keep you safe, like in an adaptation of the nervous system?

Justin Janoska: Yes. And that's is why. I, I don't want to call it trauma, because it can be a normal adaptive response to some adversity that you had. And, and that's usually what it is. Mm-hmm. So call it trauma or not, I don't really care, but you're responding to something in this way and it can be completely fine and normal actually.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: Um, I have people in my family that are really good at making pe people feel good and, and peace, um, people pleasers in a sense. [00:30:00] So like 

Dr. Brighten: the fawning mechanism of the sympathetic, and that's great. We 

Justin Janoska: love that. But when it's taken to the extreme, that's when it's, uh, pretty deleterious and it can be.

Mm-hmm. Because you're basically, um, reactivating your stress modes all over again. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: So coming back to the, the practice, so drawing that out is helpful as a visual. Mm-hmm. But even just writing out your story in any way you can think about from, start as early back as you can. Yeah. Remember at age four I was, you know, abandoned by my father and he, he left and never came back, whatever that is.

Mm-hmm. And just trying to go chronologically in the best way that you can. Is a good way to get a sense of, okay. Yeah. Maybe there were some stressful things I went through and maybe I was too young to really put a narrative to it. Yeah. 'cause you can't, you don't have a, you can't create a story necessarily at that age, but your, your nervous system decides whether it's stressful or not.

Mm-hmm. And that's the sort of disconnect I see. People think, well, I didn't have trauma, my parents were great. I'm like, Hey, great. But maybe there's something that happened that derailed your [00:31:00] system in a way, and now your, your, your system has changed and you know, one thing leads to another and it kind of builds up.

And when it goes chronic, that's when these sort of other things can happen, like the coping strategies we're talking about. Mm-hmm. So all of this to say that I think this is a very useful thing to do, and that's the first thing to do. My contention is that versus, you know, what tests do I run? 

Dr. Brighten: I think it, you know what I'm hearing you say, and I do think this is really important, is that part of the intake of understanding the patient is actually part of the therapy mm-hmm.

Of healing the patient. So before you, you know, are jumping right to a test, you're having people go through this exercise and I think it's really important to underscore for people that, I think what happens a lot is people compare themselves to others. Right? My trauma is not that bad because I've heard of this story, or my friend went through this.

And so for them to understand, you don't consciously decide how this impacts your nervous system. The nervous system decides Yes. [00:32:00] And that can literally set someone up to be in a chronic state of stress for their life in that the nervous system is primed and even the little things that come in maybe seem like not that big of a deal, as you said, can spike your cortisol more so than compared to someone else.

Justin Janoska: Yeah, exactly. Uh, I don't think people realize how, how profound this stuff is because again, when you have, a lot of the issues that people I see work, um, I work with, have challenges with stress and trauma or not, is within the, um, parent-child relationship. Mm-hmm. And that's the, the caregiving system is really where a lot of the issues lie.

People don't realize that even if your parents weren't trying to do anything. On purpose to cause harm. They're not actually, it's just because maybe they don't, they don't know what to do and they're stressed themselves. They have their own trauma to work through. Mm-hmm. Or they're dissociating and struggling with substance abuse, whatever it is.

And that neglect is really, really common. And it again, doesn't feel like trauma, but your [00:33:00] body says otherwise. Yeah. And responds differently. And people don't realize that the connection between maltreatment and like that, for instance, and psychiatric illness is as strong as the connection between smoking and lung cancer.

Mm-hmm. So it is a pretty big deal. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. That is a really big deal, uh, for everybody who's listening, who's a parent who's maybe freaked out right now being like, great, I'm causing trauma in my child. I want you to listen to, I will link to Dr. Louise Lockhart and she talks all about when we mess up what we do about it as parents because we all mess up.

Right. Uh, she brought up. Spanking your children and yelling at your children have the same effect on the brain. And any parent knows we've yelled at our child at some point. Mm-hmm. Whether it is a don't run in the street kind of situation or a, like, I'm losing my mind at the end of the day. Like it happens.

And she talks about the repair. And I think that's a piece just for parents. We haven't been taught. About how we, we hear how bad, you know it is if you mess up. But she taught us a [00:34:00] whole repair to help our children. So I just want everyone to know we have that for them. Yeah, I, I'm glad you brought 

Justin Janoska: that up because that's a lot of what I hear too is like, well, what am I supposed to do?

Like, I'm 

Dr. Brighten: human. I'm human. 

Justin Janoska: And, and, and I to say that actually what the research shows and what we know is that it's not so much what happened. It's about what you do with it after it happened. Yeah. So, like you said, the repair, the corrective experience is what we need. Mm-hmm. And if that doesn't happen, that's where things get go sideways.

Yeah. And when it's repetitive, it's not one thing. Usually it's when it's over and over and over. Mm-hmm. During the developmental years of childhood, those a really, you know, sensitive periods of time. Yeah. So when you don't have that attunement and um. The, the warmth and validation, all those things, for whatever reason, that's when you, you, you run into some issues later in life.

Mm-hmm. Potentially. 

Dr. Brighten: So I wanna talk a little bit more about how this all links to autoimmune disease because there's growing body of evidence showing that stress and trauma can have a major impact on the development of autoimmunity. Can you talk to us a [00:35:00] bit about what is happening physiologically to contribute to that?

Justin Janoska: So the way I look at this, and I try to explain it in this sort of simplistic manner, that may be a little oversimplified, but to me it comes down to a suppressed immune system. Mm-hmm. From chronic stress starting as early as childhood potentially, and chronic inflammation from too many environmental exposures.

And they're both going to influence each other because too many exposures, infections, and toxicants and things like that can wipe out your immune system because it's, it's increasing the demand. It can't keep up with it. Mm-hmm. And it wipes out. Right. And then the early stress and adversity you go through weakens, um, well, changes the immune cell trafficking, it weakens your gut.

Cortisol wrecks the gut lining, weaky gut. Right. And now you're more prone to infections and susceptibility to things like that. Yeah. So it's, it's a two, it's a two-way street. Mm-hmm. So I'm not here to say that both things are occurring at the same time for people, but I think that's what I see [00:36:00] a lot of the time.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: And you could have had no stress in your life and all of a sudden you just got accumulated with a lot of things in the environment over the years, and now you got an autoimmune disease. Mm-hmm. That can happily happen. I just don't think that's. The norm for me anymore. Mm-hmm. I think what I'm seeing is a lot of what we're talking about here, which is, uh, early life stress, uh, which is maybe a better word to use, or early adulthood stress.

Mm-hmm. And in some cases I've had people I've seen who in their twenties they were sexually abused maybe, or they had a stressful job and were traveling a lot. Uh, I work with a lot of nurses, you know, night. Uh, night shift workers. Yeah, that's tough on the body. So those kinds of things, um, aren't really trauma related, are they?

Mm-hmm. But they can be really problematic and lay down the foundation for immune dysregulation. So there's a lot of different angles to it, right? Yeah. But I'm not sure if I answered your question. 

Dr. Brighten: No, I, I definitely think that you did. Uh, in terms of how stress is affecting the immune system [00:37:00] and contributing to that, I don't think you can be a modern human anymore and make it through even early childhood, uh, without exposure to environmental toxins.

I don't even, I don't even like to think about microplastics. I don't know how you feel about it, but I'm like, it's game over for humans in terms of the microplastics, like they're here. Which is not, they're in our 

Justin Janoska: brain. Yeah, yeah. I know. It freaks me 

Dr. Brighten: out, but that's where I like tell people all the time.

But your body has the ability to detox, so that's where you focus. You focus on minimizing exposure and you focus on supporting your body and getting these things out. But we have these, we have these things that we absolutely know are endocrine disruptors and they're interfacing with our immune system.

And then when you consider that we live in the most artificial time of our species, there is a complete evolutionary mismatch between how we actually live in modern society and how the body was designed to live and for people to understand what I mean by that. [00:38:00] We have not evolved to walk around with computers in our hand every day and to have.

The sheer amount of information that's coming in our body hasn't really evolved to be flying in a metal machine 60 miles an hour down a highway with all of these inputs coming in. Like it's a lot of pressure to be a modern human and they say that so people start having more grace with themselves and recognizing that the things that we take as day to day, like, I should just get over it.

I should be fine. They actually are stressors and they can be no big deal until there's an accumulation of too much 

Justin Janoska: stress. Right. I wanna point this out because you mentioned it. There is a lot of attention, like you said, on avoid this, avoid that. Yeah. Like so much that the fear of it all is actually what's keeping you stuck with your disease.

I'll just say that because I think it is part of the problem. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: Unfortunately, there are a lot of practitioners out there that just kind of send that message out. Making you afraid of everything. Yeah. And that's part of the problem, especially when you already have a programming of fear from the past potentially.

So I just go, look, avoid [00:39:00] as much as you can, but you're not gonna avoid at all you can. Mm-hmm. It's not the goal. The goal is to build resiliency with your immune system, which is based on mental resilience. Yeah. And that's gotta be the focus if you ask me, 

Dr. Brighten: okay, then how do we focus on that? That's like, we got, people wanna know this.

Justin Janoska: Well, we kind of talked about it, but that's why it's really about how do you, this is tough because we're a program to, um, operate in these patterns and these roles and identities. So we need to learn how to step away from that for a minute. Mm-hmm. And that's again, a choice you have to make. And you do that.

I think maybe at a point when you realize that nothing is working for me, maybe I should try doing the opposite. So that comes back to the silence and solitude. And, and again, it could be 10 minutes, 20 minutes, I don't care. Mm-hmm. But sitting in attention to do that is so critical because we're never, we're always, you know, running around and it's a, with healing, we can't regenerate and lose weight and have more energy and all the things we want if mm-hmm.

We're doing that. So you have to bring in grace and, and kindness to [00:40:00] yourself. And I think that, um, building mental resilience, I mean, this is where therapy can be obviously useful and, and obviously there's a lot of tools out there to, to do with that and things I usually am doing with people to help them build that.

But self-regulation is the, probably the most tangible thing and practical tool to use, which is about, I, I like to think of it two ways. Having a routine for yourself in the morning to kind of regulate and get the I. The system going at a good pace, you might say. Mm-hmm. So before you're thinking about all the things going on with your to-do list and all that stuff.

And that's like for me, for example, where I do my meditation, my Qigong, my affirmations, all that jazz. And then I think what's more realistic for people is to have what I call like an emergency emotional toolkit. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: Emergency emotional kit. Uh, where you kinda spend a minute or two going through this sort of, um, brief, you know, body scan and checking in on yourself.

Um, I call [00:41:00] it like the four R technique. Um, and you're, you're going through this process of basically, of, of recognizing. What you're feeling, receiving it, holding it with space and compassion, um, researching the body, where it is, where it lives, if anything, and then releasing it and, and offering some words of compassion.

Those kinds of things go a long way, but anytime you can interrupt that stress response, that's mm-hmm. Because think of it like this. Every time you're stressed out about something, whatever's going on, the traffic, the kids, this, it's like a squirt of gasoline on the fire it feels like. Yeah. On your body.

And it's all the, it's doing that all the time. So I think we need to interrupt that pattern and find moments to even just breathe and doing breath work and doing Ari breaths and, you know. Mmm. What are those? Okay. Inhale. Inhale and humming. And the exhale very soothing and increases vagal tone and the vagus nerve, which is all the, all the talk these days.

All those things are very important. I think it can be as simple as that if you, if, if you do nothing else, 

Dr. Brighten: yeah. 

Justin Janoska: But that's the [00:42:00] sort of stuff we have to start implementing into our routine when we need it. To build more mental resilience. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. You brought up the vagus nerve being all the rage. We just had an episode with Dr.

Neva Habib come out. I've known him for like 10 years and he's been talking about the vagus nerve all of this time, and I feel like it's 2025 that finally people are like the vagus nerve. And I'm like, Neva man, you were like, you were so early. You were so early on it. But I think he's been teaching practitioners all over the world about this, that I'm like, it took 10 years for you to have your impact, but sir, it has happened.

So I love that though, because the deep breathing and the humming is such a simple way to start sending basically like a safety response to your body. I think a lot of people are, uh, you know, some people are like, oh. Deep breathing is helpful, whatever. But not realizing that when we breathe in just the upper part of our chest cavity, we're activating [00:43:00] all of these muscles that are causing compression on the vagus nerve.

It's actually a stressful way to breathe, but it also sends this stress signal as well. And so that's simple. I, I love simple things like that. Like just take a deep breath and hum it on the way out. Mm-hmm. Um, this is something, I have two boys that I do with them and like kids will hum. They like any excuse to make noise.

They love making noise, but humming is such a good way to help them with regulating their nervous system. Yes. And it's such, and for people who struggle with sleep, this is like. This will help your bedtime routine and your kids' bedtime routine. So I love that. Super simple one. You brought up, um, weight loss, and I know you have a new book talking about the impact of dieting in women and how that has affected their health.

What roles does this like does, does chronic dieting and really the pressures of society on us, essentially not taking up too much space. I mean, that's really what women are told is be as thin as possible, be as small as possible. Mm-hmm. Be as [00:44:00] invisible as possible. Take up as little space as possible.

What is this doing to women's health overall? 

Justin Janoska: Yeah. It's a real issue and unfortunately I've seen a lot of this where women as adults now will tell me, you know, I had an aunt or my mom who told me at seven years old to go on a diet. Mm-hmm. Or you're too fat and you need to lose weight. It's more common, and I'm sure that it speaks to somebody out there because it's a real issue.

And that's sort of like psychic injury that starts to plant the seed. Yeah. When it's repetitive of trauma. Don't call it trauma or not, but um, or call it trauma or not. But that's the sort of stuff that really can, can really skew people's perception of their body image and sort of body dysmorphia comes up in disordered eating and eating disorders.

I've seen a lot of this in women who are in the young twenties. Yeah. And then they go on these stints of, of dieting and like you said, trying to get to the smallest size possible. Mm-hmm. Or they do competitions and it's a whole other world, but it can [00:45:00] go to that extreme and that that's one way, uh, that kinda shows up.

But then you have people who are older, women in their forties, fifties perhaps, who are trying to lose weight and are struggling because of their disease, their PCOS, their Hashimoto's, what have you. And that's a whole other challenge in and of itself. But then you tie in what we're talking about right here with.

Nervous system dysfunction and dysregulation and psychic injuries and things like that from the past that fit, fit into this. And then we're undereating, we're over exercising, and that is exactly the opposite of what people need to be doing. Mm-hmm. Because it's reinforcing the stress that's already underneath it All.

Right. Yeah. So there's a lot of layers to this that can sometimes happen, and this is why it's frustrating for a lot of women who are like, I'm doing all the right things. I'm like, I know you are, but it's not about that anymore. It's about all the other stuff. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, no, it definitely does.

I'm curious, you, you brought up like the middle aged woman [00:46:00] who's trying to lose weight, but maybe she's in perimenopause, maybe she has PCS, maybe she has diabetes, she has Hashimoto's. Like the bright, there's a lot of things that contribute. 

Justin Janoska: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Brighten: You have these influencers out there typically in their early twenties saying.

Your disease is not an excuse. We see this a lot with PCS and perimenopause. That's not an excuse. You, you should just be working harder. What do you think that's doing to people psychologically? 

Justin Janoska: My gosh, I, I, I don't, you know, I've never been, uh, a woman. Yeah, exactly. So it's fair. Right? So I, I need to put that out there.

Like, I don't know. I'll never know what it's like. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: I can only sympathize and show compassion for women who are going through that, because I can't imagine like, the avalanche of stress and the pressure and really like the, it's like self, um, what, what do you gaslight yourself in a sense? Like, am I, you know, am I doing things wrong?

Am I it, is this the right thing? Like, what am I, and I think that, um, it's really, it's tough because you start second guessing yourself mm-hmm. And thinking, am I doing [00:47:00] the right things? Like I said, but. It is challenging when, okay, lemme put it this way. I think what needs to happen is not blame the other person, the influencer.

I know that people are saying things, doing things, same with doctors, and you don't like it, that's fine, but the onus is on you and it's about self-control and taking ownership mm-hmm. Of what's happening. And that's why you have to be in the driver's seat and, uh, be like, I'm empowered and I can do it, and I can turn off and filter out these things that aren't serving me.

Mm-hmm. But that's gotta come from you. And that's why it's really about that more than like, what do I avoid? And, and or, you know, pay attention to, or not pay attention to. Mm-hmm. But realizing that this isn't serving me and look what it's doing to my mental health. And the more you get quiet inside and do the things you're talking about, none of that will really phase you.

Mm-hmm. And you kind of just, you can kind of navigate through this on your own. And have the right skills and learn what you need to do to support yourself. So that's my simple answer to that. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, [00:48:00] no, I appreciate that because I think you're absolutely right. You cannot control other people's actions, but you can control how those actions affect you.

Yeah, and it has been a big controversy on the internet, right? Because doctors really kind of were the origin of eating disorders in some of these communities, right? If we look at TCOS in particular, it has always been this. Eat less, move more, you'll gained weight that caused your PCOS or if you just lose weight, you'll cure your PCOS.

We know there's no science to support what is being said there. And so it's really been like this trickle down that I've seen this authority that wears the white coat had said these things, and there are people who still adopt it and perpetuate it. There's been, um, some doctors who work in obesity medicine, and it's only been in the last couple years, I've seen them stop making snarky remarks about women and being like, oh, really?

Like you're eating a thousand calories and you still can't lose weight. Like [00:49:00] Yeah, right. And only in the last couple years have I seen them start to have more compassion and I'm like, man, it has taken this long for doctors to start to switch that. And so I bring that up because I think it's really easy to attack influencers.

I feel like it's like the thing to do these days. Mm-hmm. They like go after the influencer, but also to recommend, recognize that there was a, an authority, a governing body who was saying. Yes. Say this to women. 

Justin Janoska: Yeah, absolutely. It, it's unfortunate. It's just a travesty, honestly, that's been like this for so long.

Um, with the medical system and social media. Social media is one thing that might be like that for a while. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: But again, what are you gonna change? The only thing you can change is, is you. And that's mm-hmm. S gotta be the focus. 

Dr. Brighten: I agree with that. So in your book, do you walk people through like an eating style or how do you go about addressing some of these issues that come up with diet?

Justin Janoska: So the, the focus of that book is, is a lot of things I'm trying to tackle on that. Uh, and if you're hearing what we're saying here and what I'm saying, it's [00:50:00] kind of connecting the dots with all these things. Mm-hmm. Childhood diversity and how that paves the, the way for metabolic issues later in life.

Yeah. Eating, eating disorders, sort of eating body dysmorphia, things like that. And how those things. Collectively can, you know, kind of catapult you to chronic illnesses and metabolic dysfunction. Mm-hmm. So there's a lot, there's, there's, there's a spectrum. It's like not one thing. Right. In the book, I talk about how to repair your metabolism in a sense, because what I've learned is that the way we're doing, it's just actually adding more fuel to the fire and worsening the situation mm-hmm.

By undereating and doubling down on our efforts. And it's not about that. It's actually doing the opposite, especially when you're approaching perimenopause and things like that and you're more stress sensitive and you don't have progesterone and all those things as a buffer or cortisol. Right. So that's, you know, a whole other thing.

But what I walk people through is how to really approach this in a more sensible way. Mm-hmm. Which is gonna be counter to what they've been doing. And that's, you know, gonna feel weird, but it's actually what makes sense and what I see, what works the best. [00:51:00] And I'm also of course. Uh, at the, the, my favorite chapter is chapter eight, which is about identity change and restructuring, because it's really about all that.

At the end of the day, if the person, you know, if the person that got you sick, you, you, you, you, you are not going to be able to change the disease, whatever you have until you change the person who you know, the person that got you sick. Yeah. Let's put it this way, cannot be the same person. That gets you better, so you have something has to change underneath all that doesn't mean you have to change your name and move somewhere else.

I'm not saying that, but you have to get a, you have to discard, discharge, unburdened from some of the things that, uh, you've been holding onto. Suppressed feelings and shame and unworthiness, inadequacy, all these sort of things that mm-hmm. Kinda lurking in the background. For a lot of people, they don't realize it, which is why I think a lot of people diet and why they get attached to their body image and struggle with this coping strategy with food and whatever it is.

It can look a lot of ways. Mm-hmm. I'm trying to bring awareness to a lot of this because people, I don't think, see this. And if you can see this within yourself and be [00:52:00] like, wow, you know what, really it's an invitation to be like, Hey, is this possible? Can you see how this might link to this? And if it does, then I think that's already a huge win because now you, you have an opportunity to look at your health and your actions and choices differently than before.

Mm-hmm. And it's the truth that liberates not the effort to be free, as I like to say. 

Dr. Brighten: Oh yeah. I, I wanna talk about this, uh, you know, childhood adverse events or, you know, it doesn't even have to be the extreme component of this. However, your, your, if people are like, why has she not read the book yet?

Because it's literally just come out and I need to know the name of your book as everyone else does. Yeah. So what is it called? 

Justin Janoska: Yeah, it's called the post Dieting Comeback. How to, um, repair your Metabolism, how to repair your metabolism, fix your body from chronic Dieting, and reclaim your health. Mm-hmm.

So I am trying to accomplish a lot within it, but in a nutshell, it's about. Yeah, fix your metabolism so you can lose weight, have energy, all those things. Mm-hmm. But let's also question why it got that way in the first place and do what we can to make sure it doesn't [00:53:00] happen again. Yeah, that's really the point of it.

Dr. Brighten: You keep saying you're trying to do a lot, but it sounds to me like you're trying to take a holistic approach, like you're trying to have people look at all of the pieces. Yeah, that's which when you compare it to other books might feel like a lot because there are, let's face it, there's a lot of health books out there that are like, do this one thing and you will have tremendous results.

And every practitioner is like, it doesn't really work like that. It's not always necessarily the author too. As somebody who's worked with publishers, sometimes the publisher's PR is like, this is what we gotta do to get Barnes and Nobles to put it on the shelf. So it is just like, I don't blame the authors for that so much, but it is something that I think we are a culture of quick fixes of the one thing, the magic bullet, the one pill, and it's just not that way.

No. I wanna go to the piece 'cause you brought up experiences in your childhood. Causing issues with your metabolism, with your self-worth, with your body image. Mm-hmm. How is that contributing? 

Justin Janoska: So at a physiological level, we talked about the cortisol and all that stuff, which is the one [00:54:00] thing I'll say right out of the gate that's definitely gonna probably play a role.

Mm-hmm. Although it may not be obvious because usually it's a cumulative effect. And there's things that, you know, you're stressed in childhood. You're stressed during adolescence when you're trying to feel accepted and belong in a community with friends. And then there's early adult stress in the romantic relationship that didn't work out all that stuff, and job stress and all that.

So there's that component. But for me, I, I like to really, um, I harp on the coping strategies and behaviors and personality traits. Mm-hmm. Because that's kind of the thing that even for women who are in their fifties or middle aged, they're still living in these patterns that are, is just reinforcing the problem because they still have parts of, within themselves, they have to heal.

Like the, you know, the 8-year-old child within themselves who is still feeling unworthy, inadequate, and has grief or resentment or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. And we already know, if we could get into like, you know, the quantum stuff like that is all some, it's 

Dr. Brighten: the quantum stuff. No one's gonna [00:55:00] know that. Like, well, some people probably gonna know that, but want everyone the same thing.

The whole body of 

Justin Janoska: science looking at quantum metabolism and quantum physics and how everything is energy, right? 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Janoska: And so if we look at it from this model of everything's energy and the biochemistry is just an effect of that, in a sense that emotions, and we haven't been able to prove this yet, I think one day it will happen where we can do a test and show like this emotion is doing this to the body.

Mm-hmm. And here's, here's the consequence, I 

Dr. Brighten: think Chinese medicine has. Has been onto that for a very long time. They'll say like, you know, there's certain ways that when you're having liver issues can be like repressed anger and things that you're going on. Yeah, for sure. We just don't have a way to actually measure it and validate it.

Justin Janoska: Yes, exactly. But we, we know something's happening though. Emotions are doing something. They're changing the cells and making influences some shape or form. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Janoska: So that has to be, this is why, um, I just go, we don't need a test to kind of prove anything. We just know that those lower vibrational, fear-based energy energetic states are not helpful for anybody.

Yeah. If we're living with that now for [00:56:00] like five minutes is one thing, but for when you're living with that for years, it's another. Mm-hmm. So, but that, that's, that's, um, laying the groundwork for these patterns and why we have these personality traits where, you know, perfectionism and workaholism and, um, you know, whatever addictive or, um, compulsive habit you have.

Mm-hmm. Which is why I talk about the. Issues we have with food and body image and, and dieting and things like that. They can all be coping strategies. Doesn't mean it is for everybody. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. But 

Justin Janoska: those are outlets. Right. And they're all normal and adaptive and necessary actually until they become maladaptive and mm-hmm.

Interfere with your life. So, uh, that, that's how I kind of see the connection there. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. I like to use an analogy with patients when it comes to emotions is that emotions are like your house and you are allowed to go to every room in your house and explore them all. Mm-hmm. But if you get stuck in a room and you can't ever get out of that room I know.

Or you're having, you know, you feel like you take one step out just to be pulled back in. [00:57:00] Now we've got an issue with that. So I like you bringing up that like you can fill all the things. It's just, are you stuck in filling those things and being in those emotions. So, you know, I wanna talk a little bit more about complex trauma.

'cause that's something you brought up. Early in this conversation and, uh, I wanted to ask that, but we're coming back now. What is complex trauma for people who haven't heard that before? 

Justin Janoska: Right. So basically it is, uh, a series of, what would I say, repetitive, prolonged exposure to events or, or experiences that are distressing and destabilizing.

Mm-hmm. In a nutshell, it comes back to the caregiving system and what happens within the parent child relationship. The, the child caregiver relationship. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: Most trauma don't, people don't like to hear this, but most trauma that people experience is within the home and it happens within the parents.

Mm-hmm. I'm not here to say your parents are bad or [00:58:00] that you're a bad parent. It's more about understanding that we think trauma has to do with the Nashville disaster and I live in Nashville. We had the hurricane. Yeah. That's a traumatic thing. Mm-hmm. And it was for a lot of us and still is. But we have to look and realize that those capital T traumas are, are definitely valid.

But mo what most people are dealing with are the lowercase T stuff, which is what we call acts of omission, not feeling safe and not getting your needs met. Mm-hmm. Not getting your needs met doesn't feel like a trauma for people. Because they just don't see it that way. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: But that's actually what most people are dealing with.

So when you have complex trauma, again, that's sort of a, a way of explaining how it's been chronic for a long periods, a long period of time for people. Mm-hmm. Which it can be, but you can also have, you know, moments where that happened and it didn't affect you. Mm-hmm. Really at all. And this is where it's tricky because I don't decide whether it's trauma or not.

You don't even, in a sense, depending on your age, you don't get to either. Yeah. It's self-identified though, and you decide whether something [00:59:00] is or not. If it overwhelms your ability to cope, then that is by definition traumatic. Mm-hmm. Right. So the developmental trauma kind of ties into the discussion of complex trauma because it has to do with what goes on in the home.

And it has mostly to do with, again, not just neglect, like physical or emotional neglect, but it obviously can include sexual physical abuse too. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. So what are some signs that someone has experienced complex trauma? Because they may, we know sometimes we compartmentalize things. Yeah. We're also not bringing it to the forefront of our mind, but there are ways that it can show up in the body an expression that complex trauma may be present.

Justin Janoska: So I spoke about this recently on my Instagram stories, but the, there's a lot of ways of, of course, a lot of clues. I think the one thing that sticks out for me, um, especially when I think about myself is attachment styles. Because that is, again, doesn't mean it was tra [01:00:00] uh, you have trauma per se, but that's a clue that there's something that maybe didn't go the way it should have, perhaps.

Mm-hmm. For whatever reason. And now it's a problem because you're still attracting. And I work with women who seem to be stuck in the same cycle. Of people, uh, men who are emotionally unavailable, and this guy who's a narcissist apparently, and all this stuff, right? Mm-hmm. And all that to say that, um, that's not by accident necessarily.

I'm not gonna generalize here, but a lot of this has to do with, um, I'm trying to be very, very careful with what I say here, but with, with what happened within ourselves and what, um, didn't happen with our parents. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Janoska: Because if we, if our emotional needs don't get met, we're gonna find them somewhere else.

We we're, we feel a lack of security. It's safety. We're gonna find that somewhere else too. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. And 

Justin Janoska: this shows up a lot of times in romantic relationships. Right? Mm-hmm. This is why we talk about the anxious preoccupied [01:01:00] attachment style and the avoidant personality, right? Mm-hmm. Those kinds of things are, are quite common, actually, and I just go, okay, well, maybe there's something to that, like what happened in your life?

What was going on within your parents' life and all that stuff. What's also really interesting is that a lot of people didn't have necessarily anything happen to them, but through secondary trauma of witnessing what's going on in the home with their parents fighting all the time, and violence and things like that.

That can be. Another source of trauma too. Yeah. In fact, we already know that that kind of trauma is just as, um, deleterious to human health as a sexual or physical abuse. Mm-hmm. So it just, it's all relative and that's the why it's such a broad discussion and it can look a lot of different ways. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm.

And complex trauma can Yeah. Rewire the nervous system so that you stay in a hypervigilant state. How can this affect someone's health? 

Justin Janoska: There are a couple things outside of the attachment thing that we just spoke about. So I think [01:02:00] we discussed it to the, the physical changes. Uh, one of the, I I'm thinking of a client, um, somebody recently who has, who I've been working with, who has fibromyalgia.

Right. There's a lot of that going on. Mm-hmm. And there's a lot of reasons why that is, but to me, I immediately looked towards, I look at it from a trauma focused lens because. Um, the people are given these terms, right? And, and fibromyalgia and pots, auto anomia. To me it's all a stress, stress, stress to stress.

And it might include, uh, trauma and complex trauma like we're talking here, but, uh, and when you look at their history, you can kind of see these connections. So I think physical health has to be, of course, uh, part of the discussion here. I think cognitive difficulties now when you're looking at kids, it's a whole different kind of, um mm-hmm.

Angle. But if we're thinking about cognitive issues, you know, brain fog and forgetfulness and di and difficulty thinking and remembering things and it, now you're hearing this, you're like, well this overlaps with my hypothyroidism or my, yeah, this is why it's tricky. 'cause [01:03:00] there's a lot of overlap, but. We just want to kind of consider all of these, I think is what I'm saying.

Mm-hmm. The coping strategies, like we talked about, the personality traits are a dead giveaway for me. Um, and then what else? Emotional dysregulation. Uh, and low self-concept or low self-esteem, um mm-hmm. And doubting your ability to do things and lacking identity and a sense of purpose in life. Like there's a lot of the psychospiritual stuff is not something that I think is discussed enough in this space, and I think it needs to be.

Mm-hmm. Because if you're just spending every waking moment of your life working on your health, like why are you here? Mm-hmm. Right. So these are the kinds of ways I look at it. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Per the science, what are some of the most effective ways to heal complex trauma? 

Justin Janoska: So it's a, it's a big question and I think everyone has a different opinion around it.

Mm-hmm. And no, plant medicine is a thing, and we can certainly do those things. It's not my go-to and it's actually not easily accessible right now, so we're not gonna do that. [01:04:00] But here's the thing. That stuff has that sort of message. I'll just say this out real quick. The planned medicine stuff is great, especially MDMA and the research around all that.

But the problem is that it has this kind of like undertone of like, yeah, it'll just get you out of your trauma real quick. Mm-hmm. If you do this, you know, do this, um, round of psilocybin or whatever it is, but it doesn't really work that way. Um, you can't shortcut your way outta these problems. Mm-hmm.

Especially trauma. And so outside of that, I like to use a lot of, um, I'm doing my doctorate degree right now in, in trauma counseling. So we discuss a lot of these things right now and CBT and talk therapy is obviously always in the discussion. There's nothing wrong with that. I do that stuff too with clients, but, 

Dr. Brighten: but I will say there's a lot of neurodivergent women who get pushed to the CBT and it does nothing for them.

Right. Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: You know, the, what is it like the, the nervous system is what, 6 million years old and the brain is uh, um. Um, [01:05:00] 200,000 years old, something like that. And there's a huge, I mean, gap, right? Mm-hmm. We have to train the nervous system and work it, work at it from that angle. Basically, somatic based practices.

Dr. Brighten: What are somatic based practices 

Justin Janoska: for people who don't know? So, um, getting in your body. So expressive arts, for example, is a thing I like to use a lot, and that can look like dance and music and sound and, you know, Qigong and yoga and a lot of things like that, of course. Mm-hmm. Um, anything that gets you outta your head, into your body in a sense.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: Right. Um, and, and a lot of times with therapies, they're blending a lot of this, and before I even knew a lot of this, I was already kind of doing that too. Oh, you put a name to that? Mm-hmm. Okay. That's, that's sensory motorcycle therapy. Okay. I kind of already, 

Dr. Brighten: wait, say that term again? 

Justin Janoska: Sensory motorcycle therapy.

Dr. Brighten: Sensory motorcycle 

Justin Janoska: therapy. But really, but it really, what it's doing is it's blending things like talk therapy with. Um, movement and, and posture changes. So if you've been in a collapsed state because you were shamed as a child mm-hmm. [01:06:00] As you're working through and discussing and revisiting the trauma you like in your spine, you expand your chest, all these kind of subtle things and you know, it's just one way of doing it, but you add in these little ingredients of therapies or, or tools, right.

Um, to help change and teach the body a new way of being and feeling. Mm-hmm. And that's much more powerful, uh, than just kind of trying to talk. I I say it all the time. You can't, I can't talk you out of a feeling you don't wanna have into a feeling you don't want. Yeah. I can't talk you out of a behavior you don't want to have in work.

Wouldn't 

Dr. Brighten: that be lovely? But it doesn't work that way. 

Justin Janoska: Right. If it were that simple, we would all be better. Mm-hmm. So we, we talk about things as we need to, I like to do trauma focused CBT, if anything because it actually integrates affect regulation and working through motions, um, in the ways we kind of discussed.

Giving the psychoeducation component. Mm-hmm. Talking about why this happened, what happens to the brain, the neuroscience, and how it's normal, right? Mm-hmm. Those kind of elements are important, not just like, well, don't do this and do this instead, and think this way and don't think that way. [01:07:00] Yeah. And in traditional psychotherapy, it's not really, it's effective until it's not.

Mm-hmm. So I like that kind of stuff in conjunction with the body-based stuff. And expressive arts is really great because for a child, for instance, it works really, really well because they don't have the language to put into context what's going on. I had a child, uh, excuse me, a parent who I was working with, and she has a 10-year-old, um, quick story, and she has Crohn's disease.

How does a 10-year-old get Crohn's disease? Mm-hmm. I dunno if you've seen much of that at that age, but No, 

Dr. Brighten: it's, it's rare. But I've seen eight year olds with Hashimoto's, 

Justin Janoska: right? Yeah. So I just go, why is that? I'm curious. And come to find out, before she was even one, they were almost, um, somebody came into the home and tried to kill him.

Yeah. Like, it was really like, and that's an example of. She felt the shock of that. Mm-hmm. And the stress of that, I'm sure. Yeah. And that had probably something to do with it. I don't know. Obviously it's, it's a guess, but I think that has something to do with it. So all this to say, when you can have a child, excuse [01:08:00] me, um, or somebody, even just adults, it works really well too.

Just, you know, draw me a picture of your symptom. How does it, you know, how does this emotion feel using body outlines and trying to express what the mind, um, can't really put into words. Yeah. Which works for kids too. That kind of stuff is really, really great. And that's already therapeutic by itself.

It's self-regulating. Mm-hmm. And it gets you to tap into some aspects of your, of your past and memory that they call it implicit memory, the things that are stored in the senses. So the sounds, the smells, the, the touch, the sensations like that, uh, where a lot of trauma gets stored and you don't have a narrative.

Recollection of what happened necessarily. Mm-hmm. So if you can do it, hit it from that angle, that is actually easier and more effective sometimes. And it keeps people away from having to recall and repeat the thing they've already done 20 times with their therapist. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Let's go through some tangible things people can do, because you've mentioned, uh, drawing how the emotions feel.

Mm-hmm. You've mentioned dancing, but I imagine it's not [01:09:00] just dancing. Uh, so can you, 

Justin Janoska: it's 

Dr. Brighten: a salsa dancing. Salsa dancing. That is the one. Uh, but can you give us like, you know, how if so someone's gonna get in their body? So we know there's practices like doing Qigong Tai Chi yoga, where you're, you're mindful, you're breathing, you're present.

Mm-hmm. But like, how does dancing, how do we incorporate that? 

Justin Janoska: So it's not really dancing? I think to your point, it's more about, um, body shaking you might call it. Okay. And it depends on the situation. So we might call 

Dr. Brighten: that dancing. 

Justin Janoska: It's like, yeah. Just like shaking around. Uh. It's gonna depend. So if I have somebody with, with who's in a deep freeze response maybe, or is really shut down, what does that look like?

Collapse state, again, you look at posture, posture tells you a lot mm-hmm. About somebody. Symptoms tell you a lot. I immediately, I'm posture spit up. Yeah, I know, right? So with, with movement, it's really about movement. Mm-hmm. And that's why it, it's more practical for the average person and just to move your body in a way that feels good, but also to drop in and notice sensations and what comes up as you do it.

A lot of the [01:10:00] work I do is not really, um, got a game plan per se, as far as we're gonna go into with this intention and get rid of this issue. It's, it's gotta be more spontaneous in a sense. Mm-hmm. Where you explore and you get curious to see what happens in the moment. Mm-hmm. And this is where insights and, and revelations can happen.

So, uh, yoga based movements are really good too. Uh, I have, uh, on my team we have a, a Thera, a therapist who teaches a lot of this. Mm-hmm. And it's more about, um, teaching your body a different sort of movement pattern that signals safety and resilience. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: So if. You're used to vulnerable. Mm. You, you were, you grew up in a very vulnerable situation.

Mm-hmm. And you were abused or neglected, whatever that is. You might change your posture or do something that, that um, like doing a star. 

Dr. Brighten: So my son actually developed pandas, which is an autoimmune condition of the brain. And that was opposed, that was [01:11:00] recommended by psychologists, by neurologists, by functional neurologists.

Literally everybody was like, get him to take up as much space as possible. And what's interesting is when you look at the research, um, I believe it's Amy Cuddy who did a TED talk on this. I don't know if you've seen that, but the collapse state, cortisol goes up, hands on the hips, feet wide, stress hormones are coming down.

Yeah. And so there is a lot to be said about posture. Get back to the star you were saying the star pose. That's right. I bet there's others. Yeah, absolutely. 

Justin Janoska: Right. So that all that does is teach your body like we can be expansive and be safe in this position. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Janoska: And. Which is an 

Dr. Brighten: incredibly vulnerable position.

Of course it is. Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: That's why we do it. But in a very gradual way. And usually with, you know, somebody who's gonna guide you through it. And this is why you kinda have to play with these things. I'd like to say it like, you know, it's trying to, it's like going on. Um, I like to describe it like this. It's like going to the store, trying on a, a pair of jeans and like, is this fit now?

Maybe I'll try this size. Mm-hmm. And maybe this one works. You don't really know actually until you [01:12:00] experiment and play with it. Yeah. Which is why taking a multimodal approach is the best way to do it. So dancing might a movement might be great for somebody who's been in a shutdown state, like we're talking here and it might be an annoying and bothersome in for another, so I don't get attached to it.

And you don't wanna be that way either. Yeah. But I think what we said here about put your hands on your hips and things like that. Um. We call that body oriented processes, and that's one of these things that is, again, signaling your body, that telling your body that, you know, we don't need to be in this defensive stance anymore.

Mm-hmm. We can, we have space and it's safe to, you know, change and in teaching yourself, your body through the nervous system that it's okay to do that. And it doesn't happen in one shot. You have to do over and over and over. There's a lot of like, things and habits and things you, you practice and, uh, do on a daily basis to kind of reinstall that.

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Brighten: New 

Justin Janoska: belief and, and idea. 

Dr. Brighten: What are other ways that people's posture is telling you that like they may be [01:13:00] struggling in their nervous system? 

Justin Janoska: Well, it's hard to say when you, when you're working with people who are busy and workaholics and, and stuck in perfectionism or never slowing down, that's a different.

A totally different state than being in a collapsed state, right? Mm-hmm. You, you might just be frantic and running around. I'm not gonna know where your posture is in that state, but that, to me, it would be more helpful to look at than, and am I being standoffish today because I'm standing like this? And because those things actually matter too, in a sense, you might say.

Mm-hmm. Is that people kind of have, um, you know, we're sitting like this right. And relaxed and mm-hmm. And that stuff actually matters. If you're, if you're kind of on a, on the defense, you're gonna turn your shoulder away, you're gonna look the other way, you're not gonna look someone in the eye. All these kinds of things are very subtle.

Mm-hmm. But that's sort of something that you don't notice because you're not looking at yourself. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: So in the therapeutic setting, these things can be picked up perhaps. Mm-hmm. I don't see a lot of that. I see [01:14:00] people who are just mostly, um, kind of in their head a lot. Um, and, and don't display like trauma classic, you know, PTSD, like trauma symptoms.

And so, um. It's not easy to discern necessarily, but yeah, they're just clues you look for. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, that's 

Justin Janoska: all. 

Dr. Brighten: So we've talked about a few things. We've talked about moving in your body, drawing, uh, the emotions you talked about earlier on mapping through what life has looked like, whether you're drawing or you're journaling that someone listening to this podcast right now, they're struggling with autoimmune disease, they're struggling with nervous system dysregulation.

What are some other things they might be able to implement on their own? So within the United States, there are significant barriers for people to be able to access healthcare, and we certainly know there's a lot of stigma around mental health. So I'm just thinking right now somebody's like, I just need some support.

Whether it be things that can help support [01:15:00] nervous system dysregulation, autoimmunity. I'm just wondering if you have other tools that you recommend that like, you know, everybody might be wanting to try doing this. 

Justin Janoska: The, the challenge I think is. Uh, finding solidarity in community with people that Okay.

Yeah. That, um, are like-minded and will help teach your nervous system as well to be different. Mm-hmm. And this is one of the things I see too, is that if you're constantly involved and around emotionally mature people or a partner who is not supportive and is kind of, you know, again, modeling your, your father who is neglectful or abusive, like this stuff happens, it's gonna be virtually impossible to control your autoimmune disease or get better.

Mm-hmm. I'm not saying it's easy to get outta that. I'm not even gonna tell you to get out of that relationship either. That's only something you can do. But what you can do is try to balance that out with opportunities with people who can bring you that calmness and composure and to feel [01:16:00] seen mm-hmm.

And validated in a way that. You know, you haven't really felt before. You need that. And we need community because without that, that's, I think the hardest reason, the biggest reason why we don't maybe get, um, where we want to go because our, our nervous system is just flooded with all these insults from the world we live in, and we don't have anything to counterbalance that 

Dr. Brighten: within the United States.

Finding community is incredibly difficult. Culturally, we are, we're a culture of independence. Right. While you're in school, it is easy to meet friends and, and make this community. What does an adult do now? Like, what do you recommend to your clients when they're like, but I don't have community. How do I seek that out?

Justin Janoska: Right. It's a difficult, uh, question to answer because a lot of times people will tell me, I think. I don't have anything I'm interested in or I don't have time for it or, and I just go, there is something, think about what you used to like to do. Mm-hmm. And you start to have these sort [01:17:00] of questions come up and you dig into this, that way you, it could be a doorway to figuring out what are you passionate about.

Mm-hmm. And maybe it's a volunteering, maybe it's, uh, you know, working in your local community and being of service in some shape or form. But I think you find it's tricky because some people don't know anything but stress. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: And this is why I'm, I'm cautious with saying these things 'cause it's not that easy.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Janoska: To just be like, well, you know, you like to play tennis. Go find a community of people that like to, who like to play tennis. It's not, you know, that can happen. It'd be easy for some people, but. I think you gotta think about the, the simplest thing, like what makes you feel good. It could be the littlest thing.

You start from there and I'm, I'm, I'm doing it this way on purpose because I think that's where people are sometimes is like, what makes you just feel good? Is it the sun on your skin? Is it the, the warmth of the water in, on, uh, your head from the shower? Is it putting your, your feet in the sand and you start with that?

Mm-hmm. So that way you can get a sense of, well, what else do you like to do? You like to build sun [01:18:00] sandcastles, you like to, you know, do art. You like to do whatever it is that can maybe be built off of that idea if it's not easy to figure out. What do you like to do? What brings you joy? A sense of aliveness.

Those are the questions I'm thinking about for people, and I, I mm-hmm. Say to people, think about that for yourself, because there's something there. And once we figure out what that is mm-hmm. That it's going to, going to be easier to find people that, um, or into the same kinds of things. But that's probably the easiest way to, to access it.

It's we What are the commonalities that, um, certain people have that you wanna be a part of? 

Dr. Brighten: Do you feel like virtual community is a substitute for in-person? 

Justin Janoska: No, no, it, it's not. I mean, okay. If you, and if you look at tribal communities and how that even was healing, uh, it, uh, that helped people heal trauma just by having communities to do their dancing around the fire or whatever those things were.

Mm-hmm. The community, here's the thing I'll just tell you is that we know also in [01:19:00] research that the thera and people don't like to hear this maybe, but the therapy you're using is helpful and needed, but that's not the most important part. It's the therapeutic alliance in the relationship. Mm-hmm. That tells you already everything you need to know about what healing actually looks like.

Mm-hmm. It's just the attunement, the connection, all that stuff, the warmth, the validation, that is a very salient ingredient, uh, a very important ingredient, I should say, in, in healing anything. Mm-hmm. So if that gives us any clues, we should see that. Well, uh, we need to find that in realistic situations as well.

Yeah. It's just about what does that look like? And I think you just gotta start with. Very simple things that brings you peace and calmness. And maybe it's just going for a walk. Mm-hmm. And maybe it's, you know, talking to somebody at the coffee shop and just starting there. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: You know, it, it's, there's a lot of different ways to do it.

I think you gotta meet people where they are. Mm-hmm. That's all. Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. And I appreciate you bringing that up because certainly through the pandemic, it was pushed on us that [01:20:00] virtual community could take the place of the in-person, the physical community. And I think a lot of people felt like they were the problem because it wasn't working for them.

And yet I think if we're all honest about it, it wasn't working for any of us. 

Justin Janoska: I agree with that. I, I think it's hard to admit that, uh, we wanna wish that it did. Yeah. And it could be a surrogate or a placement for that, but it's not the same because. There is energy that's coming off of you and off of me, and that's, mm-hmm.

That's, um, it's the same thing with a parent to a child, mirror neurons, all that stuff matters. So why would it be any different for us as adults? Mm-hmm. But community, and we know this, I think you know this too, that when it comes to longevity, I. And, and health span. It's, it's the, it's the connection with people.

That is the most important part. 

Dr. Brighten: The Diet of the Blue Zones is a lie. Yeah. It has been the community and the lifestyle all along. Right. Because when we look at it, it's always been right, the thing that we can control so easily. You can't control [01:21:00] others, right? You can't make people be in community with you.

But when, I think this is one of the most damaging things that the whole Blue Zone notion did is that they looked at just how do these people eat? And then, well, maybe they didn't, I should say. I think the media really did that. They took it and they were like, this is what they eat. But when you really look at it like they have people they can rely on, they have people they're saying hello to, they have people who care about them, who are checking in on them.

And these are absolutely crucial. We know in the context of women's health, especially with our cycles and fertility. That community highly influences our levels of progesterone. And it's not just that stress can crash your progesterone, but that actually being around people, I like to say people who make you feel like glitter, like you literally spill like sparkly and shiny and like maybe you had a little party.

Uh, you feel amazing around them. It starts to optimize your progesterone levels as well. 

Justin Janoska: Right. That's all I need to know. That's why it's so powerful. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. [01:22:00] Yeah. You know, and I brought up the fertility piece and I'm just curious because I've seen you talk about the impact of these stressors. We're we're seeing far more people being diagnosed with infertility One in six now.

Yeah. We look a lot at endocrine disruptors. Absolutely. Irrefutably playing a role. Uh, with that we look at the age of conception, the attempt to conception, right. The, if we're trying older, like there's all of these variables, but I don't see a lot of people talking about one. The nervous system component of this, but also how dysregulated someone can become as they go through infertility.

Justin Janoska: Yeah. I actually work with a surprising number of people with that. Mm-hmm. But to your point, there's so many variables and factors involved in that. And not here to say it's all stress and trauma. Am I here to say it's all environmental factors too? Yeah. It's probably a hybrid of many things, and then the males may be part of it too.

Who knows? Mm-hmm. But no, they 

Dr. Brighten: definitely are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Justin Janoska: For [01:23:00] sure. 

Dr. Brighten: Right. 

Justin Janoska: Yeah, I agree with all that. So, uh, but the, the thing I've noticed in the themes, the themes I've noticed is that, well, let's just point out the fact that when you've gone through a round of IVF. For the fifth time and how stressful that is and how devastating it is.

And that, that reinforces the stress cycle mm-hmm. That you're already in, in the first place. And that's really bad. And I, I, I can't even imagine what that's like. Um, I know you've had your challenges yourself. Right. And it's devastating. But what I would say is that we have to really consider, like we said here, the present day stressors.

Mm-hmm. Of what we're living in her lifestyle. That is considered normal. And that's, uh, I have somebody right now I'm working with who lives, she's a teacher. She's very stressed. She's not showing anything that I can see at this point in time of any clear toxicants and things like that. Mm-hmm. Her, [01:24:00] her mind is just flooded with a lot of stuff.

And as we know, if you're in a state of survival, you know, reproduction, weight loss, none of that matters. Doesn't care. Body doesn't care. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Justin Janoska: So we really have to look at and integrate that lens, I think the most. Mm-hmm. Uh, if we're not, because it, it may not just be present day stuff too, but stuff lingering from the past and only because of the fact that you have still not unburdened from that.

And not just at an energetic level, although that could be part of it, but mostly because of, like we said, the behaviors and the way you're living life. Um, being super mom or, and whatever that is. It is all to do with like how you approach life. I would say. It's not so much your roles and what you're doing, but how you approach life and your perception, how you look at things.

Um, and you know, when you, when you change the way you look at and be with things, what you look at and be with changes. So really the, the key to all this to me is perception. Mm. You have to see [01:25:00] things with new eyes. And if you can do that, then there's an opportunity to, um, implement, try new things that you haven't before.

And before you know it, you're, you're, you're giving the body this blueprint of, of, of safety and regulation, but it is self-regulation at the end of the day. But if you don't know what's causing dysregulation in the first place, that that's the hardest que that's the hardest part of this. Mm-hmm. And that's, to me the, the most challenging thing about all this navigation stuff with infertility, if we're talking about this, because the running the test and doing all the protocols is maybe the, you know, easier side of things, but if we're not really aware of what's going on and what we're still, how we're still operating, and, uh, the person themselves isn't aware of it, then you might be swimming upstream for a long time and not know why.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. How does one go about seeing things through new eyes? Because it sounds really easy when you say it, but then when I think about it, I'm like, yeah, that actually could be tricky. 

Justin Janoska: All that really means is [01:26:00] having a beginner's mind. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Janoska: One of, one of the things that my therapist and teacher and teacher says is, you know, what would this moment be like without your thoughts about it?

Right. What's the truth that is always here. Mm-hmm. The awareness is always here. The if and a love, the consciousness, all that this is sound really woo woo, but it's actually really powerful and, and there's truth to it. Like there is that stillness that's always there. Can we tap into that? And this is why practice practices like Tai chi, qigong, and meditation and all these other things can help you access that.

Mm-hmm. Which is why we, I continue to bring that stuff back up because yeah, breathing in breath work is great at the moment, but if you can really find moments where you extended periods of time where you do these things, you're gonna find yourself looking at things differently. And you'll all of a sudden, and I noticed this for myself after many, you know, years later, I was like, wait a minute, I'm not approaching this like I used to.

I'm not freaking out about this, or I'm not as impatient as I used to be. Mm-hmm. I was very impatient for a lot of years, a lot of time. [01:27:00] And this stuff kind of happens organically. It's why it's so powerful because your brain is changing and these, and the, the neural rewiring is happening. The neuroplastic changes are happening.

And so all I'm saying is try, I, my, my, my encouragement is to see things in new eyes by means, by way of having a beginner's mind, being curious instead of, um, creating an opinion about everything. And it's not easy to do that. Mm-hmm. I still do it too. Right. But if we can drop in to our body. That's where there's an opportunity to do that.

But it's like setting an attention is more of what that is. Mm-hmm. That's really what it's about. It's just an intention and you play with it and you see what it does for you. And if you, if you night, if you like what you see and what's happening inside of you and how you're not reacting as much, then maybe it's something to try more of.

Mm-hmm. And that's all that is. So there's a little bit of this like, okay, maybe it's bs, I don't know, I'll try it anyway. And then you start to see like what's hap what's happening inside of you. And to me that's the turning point for a lot of powerful [01:28:00] changes. I, I, I see this with clients where it's like they've all of a sudden cultivated more compassion and calmness and composure and confidence.

Um, and that is the love-based energy that heals. And, you know, that's the healing of medicine. If we can just try to, you know. Play with that a little bit. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. And I know you say, oh, I'm repeating myself like the Qigong, the Tai Chi, all that. However, as someone who has gone through secondary infertility, who has gone through IVF, the protocols are exhausting the timing of everything.

Like you have to do this in injection at this time. You take this medication at this time, you are so wrapped up in that. Then when you're going to the doctor, they're like, what does your uterine lining look like? What do your ovaries look like? And you, you start getting, they're compartmentalizing your body.

And, and it's hard sometimes not to disassociate right from nobody likes a transvaginal ultrasound. It's not a good time. When that's happening, [01:29:00] a lot of women will go out of their body. They are like, I'm uncomfortable. I don't wanna be present with this. It's also hard when you feel like your body is failing you and betraying you, and you're questioning like, why am I broken?

Well, I see every pregnancy announcement out there that you do start to separate from your body and being that. I worked with so many patients through this and then going through it myself. I had that insight, thank you to my patients for that, that when it started to happen in my own body, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Wait a minute. Mm-hmm. Like, this is my body, this is my house. This is where I live. I own this space and I will stay in and claim this space. And so I think what you're talking about, about things that bring you back in your body are. So very crucial when people are dealing with infertility because so much is happening in your head all the time, and the component of feeling, feeling disconnected, disjointed from your body.

So I think it's just a really [01:30:00] important thing if people are like, yeah, he said that already. Yeah, listen, because the reality is, is that the majority of us know what we should be doing, but we're not actually doing it. And I catch myself in that as well. What advice do you have for women? 'cause I hear this a lot where women are like, I can't see someone's pregnancy announcements.

I get really upset about it. For me, I, I mean, I had a friend who was close to me and she's like. When she told me she was pregnant, she was like, listen, if you don't want to talk to me and like for a couple of years, 'cause it's too much for you, I get it. I was like, yeah, right. Like, do you know how hard it is to have a good friend?

Like, I'm not gonna give up this friendship. And also, like, you having joy in this world adds more joy to this world. It doesn't take away anything from me. You having a baby, a healthy pregnancy that isn't taking anything from me. So, and I will say that I was able to be in that place because of how much work I have done working with therapists and counselors for like two decades of my life.[01:31:00] 

But it's not so easy for everyone else. And you n I'm gonna also to say you never know when you get triggered. I was in the A department store and I got lost and I looked up and there was a pregnant mannequin and I like lost it. I was like crying and I was like, why am we crying? I'm because I'm like, even the mannequin's pregnant and you are not.

And I was like, I didn't. Wow, I thought I was handling it, but it hits you out of nowhere. So I'm just curious for like what can be women be doing to, you know, really support that, but also when it happens that happened in public, when it happens, what are some of the best course of action? Not like this is what you should do, but here's some things that could help you.

Justin Janoska: Just to be clear when this happens. Being, 

Dr. Brighten: you get triggered by something. Okay. And I know, I also wanna say there's people out there that are like, you shouldn't use the word trigger. Like it is a trigger. Like you see something and it brings on a full stress response. So Right. We can give fight, flight, freeze fun, or we can be like [01:32:00] breaking down where I was just like full on ugly crying in the department store and everybody's looking at me and I was like, you have a choice right now to try to make everybody else comfortable or to move through this.

And I have learned the hard way that I never wanna punt the ball because my God, when you gotta pick it up later, it is so much more work to process the emotions. But you know, people are gonna feel that in the moment, right? They see a pregnancy announcement, they see someone who's pregnant, they have to go to a baby shower.

Like there's a lot of things when you are struggling with infertility that you know can, can leave you raw. Yeah. And feeling 

Justin Janoska: wounded. I know, I, I can't imagine. This is why I think working with a therapist or somebody, um, they can walk you through this is, is really key because there's only so much you can do of it by yourself.

Mm-hmm. Um, some people can do it and do these things that I might tell somebody and be fine, but there is a, a healing power in being seen for where you are [01:33:00] and having that support like a parent would to a child that you can't find anywhere else. So let's be honest about that. Yeah. I mean that, that might be necessary and that's fine.

You need to, you need to be seen like, I'm not crazy and I'm not broken or defective. Like that's helpful, but we can't just be like, I'm not defective. I'm not broken. And do affirmations and feel better all the time. Because there's a part of you that's also like, yes you are. What's wrong with you? Like that, that's what happens, right?

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. The dueling voices, 

Justin Janoska: right. The parts within us. Right. And that's why. Um, you know, I do a lot of internal family systems work with clients 'cause that stuff hits on the parts within ourselves and how we can have a, build a relationship with them to reach a common ground. But anyway, if you don't do that, I think at the very least, uh, I'm gonna come back to the, the tenets of Buddhism and what I've learned over the years is, is mm-hmm the, the loving kindness and, um, the compassion.

And that can look a lot of ways. It doesn't mean like, may I be free from suffering and be, you know, that [01:34:00] can be part of it necessary. But yeah, it also can show up through, um, you know, physical activities and things you do for yourself and whatever self care looks like for you. I don't want to say things because it, it's, it's, it's all individualistic.

Like maybe it's taking a bath for you, maybe it's doing a sound bath. Maybe it's, uh, you know, you know, going to the car wash. I don't know. It, it could be a lot of things, but we have to be gentle and kind to ourselves because our body. Um, one thing, one thing that really annoys me, uh, it bothers me, I should say, is that we have this idea that whenever we're plagued with an illness in general, not just infertility, is we think that it's the enemy and we it's the nemesis.

I must beat it. I 

Dr. Brighten: must be and I must be a warrior. Yeah. Right, right. Everything is IVF Warrior, autoimmune warrior, Hashimoto's Warrior. Hashtag like, 

Justin Janoska: yeah. Yeah. Hashimotos Warrior. I do 

Dr. Brighten: use those hashtags, you guys. I will own it, but it's 'cause I know it will [01:35:00] find you out there. Yes, exactly. But I think about that a lot too.

Like why are we always having to be a warrior? Why are we always having to be strong and brave and fight and battle? 

Justin Janoska: Well, childhood. Right. We can think about that connection, how that may be the reason why, how it's planted that seed and have to be strong and independent and hyper independent and all that stuff.

Mm-hmm. As a protective mechanism makes sense. But not in this context. It's still different. We gotta see it as a teacher, as an ally, I might say, and. Say, you know, this is here to show me something. I went out of, I got out of alignment in some way. And I don't know how, I'm not saying it's on me. It's, I'm not saying it's on you either.

You didn't do anything wrong, really. It's, it's just there was a series of things that came together to get you to this place. But if you're gonna change anything, again, changing your consciousness, changing your, your perception on this, seeing things with new eyes is the, is the portal to changing the situation that you're in.

And that's why it's so critical. Um, and, uh, I, I might [01:36:00] have deviated from the question, but yeah. Compassion is, is key. And I think it's just about understanding that giving yourself compassion, receiving from someone else is also really powerful too, of course. But it's not to take away pain, it's, it's compassion is to, is really about helping you, supporting somebody when they're in pain to be with pain.

Mm-hmm. Not to take it away. It's different. And we're all deserving of compassion because we're all human. We all go through things. Not here to say your suffering is worse than mine, or vice versa. Just that there's a collective suffering and we're all suffering in our unique way and we're deserving of that.

But that's the, you know, if we're all, all healing is based, in my opinion, really hinging off of fear based emotions. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Janoska: All symptoms are window to where do the healing, if we listen. Okay. It's all about listening and we have to listen to ourselves, not just the doctor and social media and all the things out there that are saying, do this, do this, do this.

Because there's some truth to you inside that, you know, [01:37:00] some inner knowing and wisdom that no one else knows, but you can't figure out what that is until you're really quiet and go inside. And that's where compassion comes into play. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. So well said. Thank you so much for taking the time to share all of your expertise with us today.

This has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you. I know a lot of people are going to be helped with this. As you guys know, you drive the conversation, so let us know in the comments what was helpful, what was your aha moments, and certainly what are the topics you want to hear more about, because I'm sure this is going to spur some thoughts for all of you out there.

 

So thank you so much. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If this is the kind of content you're into, then I highly recommend checking out this.