Carbs, Cortisol, and Perimenopause: The Real Path to Feeling Forever Strong | Liz Wolfe

Episode: 52 Duration: 1H18MPublished: Holistic Health, Perimenopause & Menopause

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If you’ve ever looked in the mirror and thought, Why is my body changing even though I haven’t? — this episode is your permission slip to stop blaming yourself. In this deep, funny, and jaw-droppingly real conversation, I sit down with Liz Wolfe, certified personal trainer, nutrition expert, and author of Eat the Yolks, to break down the real reasons women feel like their metabolism crashes in their 40s—and how to become forever strong without starving, punishing workouts, or obsessing over “clean eating.”

We go far beyond food and calories and into the hormonal chaos, generational diet trauma, and lifestyle stressors that collide in perimenopause to make women feel like they're falling apart—when really, their bodies are just asking for something different. Something wiser. Something that leads to forever strong health and energy.

Fueling Right in Perimenopause to Stay Forever Strong

In this episode, we explore how nutrition, exercise, stress, and biology intersect in perimenopause and why “calories in, calories out” is completely outdated for midlife women. Liz explains why carbs are not the enemy, how metabolic flexibility can be rebuilt, and why being “full” isn’t the same as being “fueled.” We also dive into the hormonal shifts that make everything feel harder in your 40s and what you can actually do to reverse the burnout spiral.

From personal experience to science-backed strategies, this is a roadmap for women who want to be forever strong, not just skinny, tired, and confused.

Perimenopause Weight Loss Action Plan

The Real Reason Everything Stops Working in Your 40s:

  • Why your body hits a metabolic wall in your late 30s and 40s—and it’s not your fault
  • The shocking reason even 4 days of calorie restriction can tank your metabolism
  • What being fueled vs. full actually means—and why most of us get it wrong
  • Why carbohydrates act as a safety signal to the female body
  • The reason perimenopause makes women feel like they’re falling apart
  • How the “low-fat” diet of our mothers became the “low-carb” curse of our generation
  • Why your body adapts to restriction by raising cortisol and shutting down ovulation
  • The hormonal cascade triggered by intermittent fasting—and what it’s doing to your sex hormones
  • What most people misunderstand about metabolism (hint: it’s not just about burning calories)
  • Why muscle is your metabolic goldmine—but not for the reason you think
  • How to tell if you have poor carb tolerance—and what to do to fix it
  • Why most women are trying to “earn their food”—and what happens when we flip the script to become forever strong

This episode is brought to you by:

Dr. Brighten Essentials: use code POD15 for 15% off – Supporting parents and families with tools that work.

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Links Mentioned in This Episode:

Listen now and join the women who are choosing to become forever strong—not by doing more, but by finally doing what works for their body.

Transcript

Liz Wolfe: [00:00:00] Carbohydrate intake signals safety to the body. Carbohydrate availability would have signaled a season of abundance where we needed to stock up, where we needed to add some body fat, add some layers before a season of lack. So carbs are not the enemy, but we've become so afraid of them. We are very afraid of our hunger because to us, it represents being out of control.

But when you feel hunger, that's a sign that you are producing energy, that you are actually in a good metabolic spot. So it is okay to be hungry. 

Dr. Brighten: One is the difference, especially in how we approach food in being full versus being fueled. 

Narrator: Liz Wolf 

Liz Wolfe: is a nutritional therapy practitioner, certified personal trainer, 

Narrator: and the go-to guide for women in their forties who want to own their metabolism and build lasting strength.

Liz Wolfe: She's the author of The Wall Street Journal bestseller. Eat the Yolks, creator of the Ideal Age, own Your Metabolism Program and app, 

Narrator: and host of the Top rated Balanced Bites podcast [00:01:00] with 

Liz Wolfe: decades of expertise 

Narrator: and 

Liz Wolfe: real life insight, 

Narrator: Liz helps women ditch the diet, drama, and finally feel strong, energized, and confident for the long haul.

Liz Wolfe: A lot of people think of muscle as an additional way to burn more calories, but the reality is. For each additional pound of muscle you are burning. 

Dr. Brighten: There is a phenomenon that happens in perimenopause where women are like, everything I've ever done that's worked for me no longer works. What is going on there?

There's two ways that I look at this. The first way is. Welcome back to the Dr. Brighton Show. I'm your host, Dr. Jolene Brighton. I'm board certified in Naturopathic endocrinology, a nutrition scientist, a certified sex counselor, and a certified menopause specialist. As always, I'm bringing you the latest, most up-to-date information to help you take charge of your health and take back your hormones.

If you enjoy this kind of information, I invite you to visit my website, dr [00:02:00] brighton.com, where I have a ton of free resources for you, including a newsletter that brings you some of the best information, including updates on this podcast. Now, as always, this information is brought to you cost free, and because of that, I have to say thank you to my.

For making this possible. It's my aim to make sure that you can have all the tools and resources in your hands and that we end the gatekeeping. And in order to do that, I do have to get support for this podcast. Thank you so much for being here. I know your time is so valuable and so important, and it's not lost on me that you're sharing it with me right now.

Don't forget to subscribe, leave a comment, or share this with a friend because it helps this podcast get out to everyone who needs it. Alright, let's dive in. Liz Wolf, you drove three hours, three and a half hours to come see me at the Big Cedar Lodge, of course, which is why we're sitting in the cabin. No one can see all the antlers, deer heads, and the little stuffed fox above us.

Yeah, we have 

Liz Wolfe: a lesson in [00:03:00] taxidermy here. 

Dr. Brighten: I know. Yeah, it's, I know. I'm like, 

Liz Wolfe: how many, how many things can we taxidermy? I 

Dr. Brighten: know. Yeah. It's like three deer, six pheasants, like the bath ducks. Yeah. Yeah. Everything is something else. But we're gonna talk about women's metabolic health, perimenopause, what's going on with hormones, what we should be eating.

We're gonna talk about exercise, we're gonna talk about all the things. Yeah. Here out in the Ozarks. I would love that. Yeah, it, well, the first place I wanna start is do you think women hit a metabolic breaking point in their forties? And if so, what's going on? Yes. Okay. 

Liz Wolfe: I love you. And I just had a conversation from my podcast about hormones.

Loved it. And what I wanted to add to it, and what we talked about a little bit, was all of this stuff that I'm gonna talk about is not necessarily going to work if your hormones aren't. In line, but what I wanna draw people's attention to is the fact that when you're in your twenties, you're kind of skating on the nutrient reserves and the just the health of your youth.

Then you get into your thirties, you're still kind of skating a little bit, but all of these things are [00:04:00] changing and your lifestyle and not just like, I don't exercise as much, I'm not eating as well, but it's like a confluence of multiple lifestyle factors that I feel like come to a head. Mm-hmm. In your late thirties, early forties, and all of a sudden you're like, what?

Not even you in your brain, but your body is like. What is going on. And by that I mean it's not just like kids. It's kids and aging parents and financial stress and marriage stress, and how did we get into this much debt? Or now I have a failed business, or I've been working at this job for 10 years that I hate.

Is this what the rest of my life is gonna look like? Mm-hmm. We have this not only accumulation of physical stressors on top of perimenopause and the kind of inevitable hormonal decline of midlife, but you also have all these other things. And for so many years we're like the frogs in the boiling water where we're just adding stress, adding, adding, adding.

Things are piling on, things are layering on and we don't see it. Mm-hmm. [00:05:00] As women, I think especially, we just learn to carry it. We learn to carry more and more and more and more. And then all of a sudden, I think when our hormones start to change a little bit, we're like, something has to give and it does.

Mm-hmm. Something has to give 'cause it affects everything. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's so true. Everything that you just said, I think, um, any woman in perimenopause can definitely recognize where it's like, really, I mean, we, we always talk about men and midlife crisis, and I feel like why we don't see it in women is because there's no space to have a midlife crisis.

Like, there's just like, where would you fit that? In? 

Liz Wolfe: What exactly, where, where would I fit that? In between, between what? Between like soccer practice and checking in on my parents and trying to figure out what the hell is going on? Why haven't I started my period yet? Mm-hmm. Like, am I pregnant or am I a menopause?

Like, what is going on? There's no time, there's no space, there's no opportunity for that. Mm-hmm. You're absolutely right. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. When it comes to women's metabolic health, body [00:06:00] composition, fitness, there is a phenomenon that happens in perimenopause where women are like. Everything I've ever done that's worked for me.

Mm-hmm. No longer works. What is going on there? Okay. 

Liz Wolfe: There's two ways that I look at this. The first way is maybe a little bit distinct from, you know, what you and I have talked about around hormones and the things that are happening and are going to happen, and we are going to have to craft a plan and figure out how to cope with them.

But what's also going on is that everything works the first time. Yeah. So when you're 25 and you do keto for the first time. It works. Whatever works means, right. We should probably redefine that as well. Mm-hmm. Like, what do we mean you lost weight? Maybe you actually lost muscle. Maybe you actually went through a process that you felt like worked, that helped you drop a few pounds or whatever it is.

Because I think when people think about metabolism, they're actually thinking about weight loss. Not necessarily metabolic health, but maybe you lost five pounds. Maybe you also tanked your metabolism in the process. Mm-hmm. We don't [00:07:00] know. And then maybe you went, I'm thinking of myself, maybe you did Weight Watchers and that worked, and then it didn't work the second time.

Maybe you went vegan and it worked and then it didn't work the second time. It's like at a certain point, we don't have that newbie effect anymore, and our bodies, which have these amazing capacities to adjust and make sure that whatever happened the last time doesn't get to happen again. Mm-hmm. That's what's going on as well.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Yeah. 

Liz Wolfe: The 

Dr. Brighten: adaptation of the body. It's like, I see you trying to starve me and I raise you cortisol. Exactly. We're not gonna be doing that. Yes. 

Liz Wolfe: We're gonna slow everything down. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. You said tank your metabolism. 

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. What are you talking about specifically there? Oh, well, very simply, I mean, we know from this has been researched from the scientific literature that even a couple of days, like four days of caloric restriction will down regulate your body, will down regulate its metabolic rate.

Mm-hmm. Which basically just means it will down regulate what most people say is the number of calories you will burn. I like to say the amount of energy that you generate. Yeah. So I think that's an important distinction. [00:08:00] But very quickly the body has a cascade of reactions to restriction. And what I like to think of as sort of.

Taking away safety. Mm-hmm. That when the body does not feel safe, it responds very, very quickly with a variety of chemical compounds of, um, driving you to eat more, move less. We don't even realize it, but you are actually unconsciously moving less, seeking more nourishment, more calories, more nutrition, and all of that happens behind the scenes.

It's not conscious. It's not like, dang, I, I'm doing this thing and now I feel like eating more and now I don't feel like doing my workout. It's actually your body being like, let's move some pieces around so that we don't get into more danger. 

Dr. Brighten: You talked about generating energy. Yeah. Let's talk about that.

What would happen if women, instead of trying to burn calories, focused on generating energy and what does that actually mean? Yeah. This 

Liz Wolfe: question of [00:09:00] generating energy versus burning calories mm-hmm. Is like the. Most profound paradigm shift that we could have right now in terms of our battle with our bodies, because you know, we're talking about resistance training.

I love that we're talking about protein. I love that these are in some ways easy to do. The hard part is to shift the way we have been thinking about food and nourishment and energy and how our bodies work for the last like 20, 30 years. That is certainly my battle. Mm-hmm. So when we think about metabolism most often, and this is a survey that I did for one of my programs, I asked people like, what does metabolism mean to you?

And they were like, uh, calories burned, like weight loss, like how thin you are. And that was a huge light bulb moment for me. Yeah. Where I was like, people are really only thinking about their bodies and how they work and their metabolism in terms of like, I don't know. What your body [00:10:00] does with your calories, with the food that you eat.

It's like, so if you're lucky, your body's gonna burn all these bad calories off. If you're not lucky, your body's not gonna burn calories and you have a slow metabolism, and now you have to battle with this for the rest of your life. Yeah. But if we think about this in terms of not like we eat food. The food is made of calories, the body has to deal with them.

Mm-hmm. In some way. Hopefully you're one of the lucky ones. But as we eat this food, this food is potential energy. And our body generates the energy we need from that food to run every physiological process from like hormone generation to our brains, to our skin, to everything that matters to us. Mm-hmm.

And that paradigm shift I, I know for me, made me look at my body in a completely different way. 

Dr. Brighten: So how does someone change their eating when you're looking at it from this perspective? Yeah, I think it is a paradigm shift what you're talking about, but I think women are probably like. Wait, so then how would I eat with this in mind?

[00:11:00] Yes, it's, 

Liz Wolfe: and this is, this is the crux of it, and I know people don't agree with me on this, and I'll tell you, I'm coming at this not just as like a nutritional therapy practitioner, not just as a certified personal trainer, but as an investigative writer. So 10 years ago I wrote a book, eat the Oaks.

Mm-hmm. And then I had kids. And so I haven't written anything since, but this was the same eye that I brought to that book. So I wanna disclaim this and say everybody is different. Like there is amazing, beautiful, incredible bioindividuality across women, across people. And that's a wonderful thing. I think what has informed most of us, however, is a profound fear of carbs.

Yeah. For many, many years. And I like to say the way our parents thought about fat in the eighties and nineties is the way we think about carbs now. Mm-hmm. It's been this massive pendulum swing and it has not served us well. It is an extreme. I do recognize that [00:12:00] keto low carb are useful in certain contexts, but I think that there has been so much hemming and hawing about carbohydrates just in terms of like what sweet potatoes, fruit, like people are terrified of apples.

I've told people to like, like apples are great for you. The fiber does this, the carbohydrates do that. And they're like, I never thought I was gonna eat an apple again, that I'm not allowed to eat apples. Right. Or if I do, I can only eat them like right after my workout. You know? I can only eat carbs if I'm gonna like really move my body fast.

Mm-hmm. Because then I'm replenishing muscle glycogen and that's okay. And I'm here to say, I would like women to consider the idea that carbohydrate intake signals safety to the body. My. Where I hang my hat with a lot of this stuff, and there's a lot to the metabolism stuff. But where I really center the conversation and what people seem to really need to hear is that carbs are not the enemy.

Not even like bread, not even pasta. We all have [00:13:00] individual carb tolerances. Of course. Yeah. But I think that when we think about metabolism and how our bodies function, we need to recognize that foundationally, unconsciously we are seeking safety. Mm-hmm. And signals of safety. So when I look at these signals of safety, I think one of the most profound signals of safety we can give to our bodies of.

That we are resourced, that we have resources to keep us alive, is to give the body carbs. Mm-hmm. And I have seen this reflected in the students that have come through my programs, adding back carbohydrates in a responsible, uh, integrated and thoughtful way has given their body. I feel like the ability to just be like, Ugh.

Mm-hmm. Okay. I am safe because we're the stressors that we have. There's this paper that I absolutely love. And one of the things that the paper said was, and I'm gonna paraphrase, stress, is [00:14:00] our reaction to stress, basically, either real or imagined. So it doesn't matter if we're actually getting run down by a tiger or we just are monumentally stressed out at the end of a horrible, horrible day and now we still have more on our plate that we have to get through.

Mm-hmm. Those are both stressors and they both have a biochemical physical reaction that takes place in our bodies that we have to counter in some way. And I think a lot of the advice that we get that drives me nuts is like, yeah, you're stressed, so you should go take a bath. 

Dr. Brighten: I know you just buble away like what?

Bubble your way out of this? What? Yes. 

Liz Wolfe: I'm like, what about sitting in a warm pot of water is going to fix that I need to take care of my dad. Mm-hmm. That I am worried about finances, that my marriage is whatever, that my kids need me, whatever. That's not gonna fix it. Maybe for a moment it's nice you get to check out, but if you're me and you have a 10-year-old and a 4-year-old, like somebody is like sliding something under the bathroom door.

Yeah. Like mom. [00:15:00] It's not a stress reliever and it does not have the power that communicating safety through carbohydrates does. Mm-hmm. Carbohydrates can help modulate cortisol release, they can modulate the stress response. Uh, they're important for a lot of other things as well. And we've become so afraid of them that not only do we restrict them, uh, long term, um, but we also, uh, really, uh, restrict how we dole them out to ourselves when we finally do allow ourselves to have some carbs.

It's like we can only do it at certain times of the day or on the days that we're working out, or we have to work out first and we earn our carbs. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Liz Wolfe: So that's the way I tend to feel about it. 

Dr. Brighten: There's a lot of that I think that permeates our culture of like, you have to earn your food. You're not worthy of eating just by existing.

You must have done something to be able to earn this. Yeah. But I wanna talk a little bit more about specifically I. How carbs are a safety signal. So I think this is really important for women to listen to because for a very long time, [00:16:00] and you were part of the keto and like paleo crew? Oh yeah. Like back in the day, like 10 years ago.

I mean, I, I was as well and people always, I've had to do a lot of teaching online because people will look at what I eat and they're like, where's the carbs? There's no carbs. And I'm like, potatoes or a carb. I don't eat a lot of grains per se. Although today I did throw down on, um, I was eating so people know I'm, I'm in my first trimester right now and I ate like sausage and bacon and eggs and then I was like, oh, I got a side of oatmeal and the way I ate that oatmeal.

And I was like, my body needed that today. You're safe. You're safe today. Um, but it's something that I think sometimes people think like carbs equal grains and that's it. Yep. They don't understand. So I'm gonna talk about the nuance of what carbohydrates is, are. But also the fact that we learned through people opting into Atkins first, right?

Yeah. Then it was keto and paleo. We learned that carb restriction for women can actually lead to ovulatory dysfunction, and that we can see [00:17:00] hormonal imbalances evolve from not having enough carbohydrate intake. Yeah. So let's talk about like what are sources of carbs and why do they signal safety to the body?

Ooh, so 

Liz Wolfe: this is now, I don't always think that the ancestral framework is useful. Mm-hmm. Because we live very different lives now than obviously our ancestors lived. As I have a screen in my hand. As you hold, yes. As we're surrounded by lights and camera and you know, taxidermy, whatever. We didn't have that technology many years ago, but I do think it can be useful in kind of setting a baseline for the conversation.

So when we're talking about carbohydrates and we're just talking about our biology, carbohydrate availability would have. Signaled a season of abundance where we needed to stock up, where we needed to, you know, add some body fat, add some layers. Mm-hmm. Before a season of lack. So that would just be the cycling in of abundant resources, and that's a very safe time.

So from an ancestral [00:18:00] perspective, carbohydrate availability was the safest season. The season where we needed to stock up, and then it would take us into that season of lack that was a little bit more tense, a little bit more scary, something that we needed to get through. So carbohydrates are just flat out a signal of being well resourced.

Mm. And it's not, it's not a conscious signal. And this is why I like them so much, because we can meditate all day long. We can sit in pots of hot water, we can do all of that. And we're trying to send ourselves a conscious signal of safety. But I really think that that safety signal comes down to not something that we're.

Consciously thinking about, but to a signal that we're sending to ourselves. Mm-hmm. And I've said this before, we can basically preload our bodies with the answer to whether or not we are safe. If we have some carbohydrate reserves, if we have some stored carbohydrate in our bodies, in our muscle, in our liver, then our body has the [00:19:00] resources to respond to incoming stress.

And I think that's really important. Mm-hmm. So as far as foods, I mean, all the stuff that paleo people used to talk about, remember it was like you can have maybe some berries and that's fine. That's your only carbohydrate because you know, paleo was great 'cause it taught us all to eat real food. Yeah.

But still the carbs were still kind of bad. You know, I had somebody on Facebook tell me that tomatoes had too many carbs. Mm-hmm. And them at one point. And I was like, my God. 

Dr. Brighten: Well I, we saw in the paleo movement is predominantly men. Men who were leading it. And that is something that, I mean, with the biohacking movement, with all of these movements, when men lead.

Women fail because we're not considered, and I'm not blaming them because they weren't thinking about us. Why would they be? Because like they're thinking about their own experience in teaching from that. And when we also consider that like, medicine doesn't think about us first, like drug trials don't think about us first.

Like there are so many instances where women are secondary thought. [00:20:00] Yeah. However we have think about ourselves first. Fair, very fair. Yeah. So I think that's something else to understand is that I don't think that, uh, in the paleo movement, the thought wasn't like, how can we hurt women? Or like, it was just like, this is what's working for us and we're gonna talk about this.

And I think, I, I'm with you. Paleo I think was fantastic for teaching people to actually come back and step back from ultra processed foods. Um, I always took, uh, issue because it was so funny. People would be like. Like you can't eat corn. They'd argue with me all the time over the corn, like, oh, how can you be paleo and eat corn?

I'm like, firstly, I don't do identity stuff. That's weird. Uh, but secondly, like, and they would always say like, your ancestors didn't eat corn. I'm like, well, I'm a Latina, so, yeah. Yeah. My family's from Mexico, so. Yes. Yes. Huh. They did actually, and that was the other thing I saw is that, um, you know, again, paleo was very much [00:21:00] like US centric and they didn't account for other cultures.

Mm-hmm. Like telling Asian people, like, you can't eat rice. Like, and do you remember when it was like, well now we can't eat white rice, right? Yeah. And like this. And I was like, these rules are so weird you guys, like, what's happening? And again, I'm like, I do love, like I still use non, non paleos like cookbooks I do.

Oh, I love them. But everybody loves Michelle Tan, like fantastic. Um, and I think there was a lot of good things that came out of it, but this entire carbs scare. Was problematic. Mm-hmm. But you were talking about, uh, sources of carbohydrates. So let's, let's continue that conversation. I mean, all of 'em, honestly, 

Liz Wolfe: like the, if we really like zoom out and we start to think about ourselves first, get to know ourselves, get to know our bodies, and also get really curious.

'cause I think there's kind of a desperate, this is a tangent. I'm sorry. I'm really good at tangents. But there's this desperation energy I think that a lot of women have that we need to figure ourselves out. Mm-hmm. We need to have a protocol. We need to have some approach that somebody else [00:22:00] created. Yeah.

In order to fix ourselves. And there's a lot wrapped up in that. Just like, we need to be okay for the people to, we love. So it's that. Yeah. It's also, we don't want to feel weak because that's scary and that's, again, total tangent. But when we're trying to figure this stuff out, we're not actually checking in with ourselves.

Like how. I actually feel when I eat carbs or don't eat carbs. Mm-hmm. And really like looking back, I love the retrospective. That's what I love to write about. 'cause I really am a writer at my core. I love to write about like the how we got heres Yeah. Because I think sometimes that becomes almost more important than the like where we are.

Mm-hmm. Because if you can break that down and see how ridiculous it all was, yeah. Then you can really move forward a little bit more confidently. When we kind of step back and we look at what worked for us, what didn't work for us, was it the newbie effect? Was it not the newbie effect? I mm-hmm. Mean, oh, ask all of these questions, get really curious about yourself, and then ask yourself like, have you felt good in your life?

Eating potatoes? Probably. I don't think there are a whole lot of people that can actually hang their [00:23:00] problems on a potato. We've tried. Mm-hmm. Many of us have tried. I don't think it actually shakes out that way. So whatever carb it is that you tolerate and you feel good on, I can't remember if we were just talking about this or we talked about it when we filmed my podcast, but like, if you wanna have a cupcake.

Like, have your, have your cupcake. That was me. 

Dr. Brighten: That was me being like, don't waste your added sugar on yogurt because that yield play is not as good as a cupcake. It's definitely not. It's not. And if you wanna do that, like 

Liz Wolfe: do it. Yeah. And I know that's, that was hard for me to wrap my head around for a period of time.

But really and truly, I mean, fruits, vegetables, like starchy vegetables, sourdough bread, regular bread, if you wanna have it like pay attention though. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of that stuff has a higher likelihood of making you feel like crap. Yeah. Than the other stuff. But just dipping your toe in there, like what is the carb that you wanna bring back?

Mm-hmm. Give it a try. See how you feel and think about it in terms of like, I'm sending my body some really [00:24:00] profound signals of resources are coming in. Mm-hmm. Because I do think, and with carb cravings, um, I don't think it is a. Mistake. I don't think it's a coincidence that when we are stressed, we crave carbs.

I think that's sort of the body being like, are we safe? Like, what is going on? Are we gonna be okay? Do we have the resources to deal with this? Because in ancestral times, those moments of stress when we were running from something chasing down food, those physical moments of stress, when our bodies need to recruit carbohydrate in order to generate the energy we need to survive, literally survive in those scenarios.

Like that's the answer is carbs, right? The answer is energy. And so I'm not saying like only carbs, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying let's bring some balance back to the conversation. So potatoes, starches, anything that you wanna incorporate. Do it slowly, so you know, you can adjust properly. You're also gonna be getting more fiber.

We were talking about variety before. Mm-hmm. [00:25:00] Just bringing more balance back to the diet and see how you feel and you'll be sending those safety signals, which I think is of benefit to anybody, not even women, not just women. In midlife. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. And as you bring this up, it's interesting because we know that during the luteal phase, as estrogen takes a backseat to progesterone Yep.

Serotonin dips. When serotonin dips, we have carb cravings. Mm-hmm. Because that's one way that we start raising that neurotransmitter. The other thing is that we know we become less sensitive to insulin. Yep. In the luteal phase. And if you consider that this is the time where the body's like, are we pregnant, are we not?

I don't know, but we should be safe. We should have fuel for that. Yep. And I feel like there's really this, um, message for a long time to women that it's somehow a moral failing. If you start craving carbs. If you want to eat more food during the lenal phase, that your problem is you don't have enough willpower, that you're not strong enough and.

You know, in your mental fortitude. And yet [00:26:00] when we look at the messaging that was born out of men's ideas of how we should operate, they always negated the fact that we're cycling like a moon through the, through the, through the sky here. And they're just like up and down, like a, like a boring little sun.

Just come up, come down. Same predictable thing. Like they have no phases. Like, so boring. That's all they're doing. Yeah. Super boring. Um, sad for you, but it's also like you were coming from your perspective and then pushing these ideas on women and yet physiologically speaking, that never really worked for us.

And as you're bringing up the whole perimenopause and this safety signal, it makes me think about like, yeah, estrogen dropping, there goes dopamine, there goes serotonin. All these neurotransmitters change. And what do those neurotransmitters say to us? They say, could you please seek out some feel good food?

Could you please get us some carbohydrates in? And I think it's a really interesting perspective to start. Thinking more about of like, and I love the like, be curious about it. Yeah. Like, [00:27:00] where is this coming from? And it's so interesting to me 'cause I'm like, you wrote this book, um, eat the Yolks when you were like telling people like eggs, man, they like their pr, um, has just struggled, like, I mean really in our lifetime, right?

It's been like, don't eat eggs, eat eggs, dah, dah, dah. And it's like how, like, I remember being in my twenties and then it was still like the don't eat the eggs phase. And I was just like, how could this perfect thi this the most perfect protein and entire organism grows from this, like this amazing thing be bad.

Like this makes no sense to me. And yet it's just like. We have to stand back and ask what's true for us. Because the fads, they're gonna come back again. Yep. Like, like I said, like, I mean, it was Atkins in my twenties and then it was keto in my thirties and it'll be something new. And every carnivore, oh yeah, I forgot.

We have carnivore now. But now it's 

Liz Wolfe: carnivore plus fruit. So 

Dr. Brighten: now it's 

Liz Wolfe: like meat and fruit, and now it's, so now we're just going right back to paleo. It feels like. I know. 

Dr. Brighten: And it's so funny how people are like, [00:28:00] I'm the first to think of this, but I'm so innovative. And you're like, oh my God. And when you've been in the nutrition space, you're like, oh, this again, uhhuh this again.

It's 

Liz Wolfe: all cyclical. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. So I wanna talk about the fact you, you parse out this idea of being fueled. Yeah. So energized and fueled versus being full. And that is what so many people are often chasing or being told to put down the fork before you actually feel full in your stomach. Yeah. So one is the difference.

Especially in how we approach food in being full versus being fueled. Oh, I think 

Liz Wolfe: this is such an important question. I'm so happy you asked it. And I think a lot of this comes out of the keto low carb movement where you will hear people say, I can eat a low carb breakfast and be full for the whole rest of the day.

Mm-hmm. I don't need to eat again until three, four, or five o'clock. That's sad. It's sad. I'm like so sad. I just love 

Dr. Brighten: food too 

Liz Wolfe: much. Well, I think that we're afraid of hunger. Yeah. Yeah. I think we really are. I [00:29:00] think we are afraid of our own bodies. Being and that mm-hmm. Translates to a bunch of different levels.

We are afraid of our own bodies for a lot of reasons. Yeah. But we are very afraid of our hunger because to us it represents being out of control or making decisions that we shouldn't make, or looking away, we don't wanna look. Mm-hmm. But I really wanna make that distinction. Just because you have a lump of food in your stomach all day long that hasn't digested yet, or moved through your body, does not mean that you are actually fueling the metabolic processes that are so critical to our health and our wellbeing, and our longevity and our hormones and all of that.

So, first and foremost, I want people to understand that there is a difference, but also look at it in terms of it is okay to be hungry. Mm-hmm. We are allowed to be hungry. We don't wanna be hangry, we don't wanna. Murder somebody for a granola bar, but it is okay around, you know, 11, 11 30 to be like, oh, I'm excited for when I get to eat lunch.

Mm-hmm. Just because you're hungry doesn't mean you're gonna make some horrible decision or you're gonna ruin all your [00:30:00] progress or fall off a wagon or whatever. It's okay to be hungry and when you are eating healthy food or when you are, you know, feeling good when you're on a good trajectory, when you feel hunger, that's a sign that you are producing energy.

Mm-hmm. That you are actually in a good metabolic spot. And I think it's important that we make that distinction. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. And I also want people to understand that. You may have gut motility issues. Mm-hmm. If you are not feeling hungry, I think, um, we don't talk about this as much, but the loss of bowel sounds.

So your doctor goes through, we listen to four quadrants mm-hmm. For bowel sounds. And if we hear diminished bowel sounds, that can be an early sign that you're heading towards a neurological disease. Oh, wow. And so I think sometimes people will brag about how like, oh, I can just eat one meal and then like I am, I don't feel fool at all.

And then you start asking about their, or excuse me, I don't feel hungry at all. And then you start asking about their bowel movements and you start to like, and you're like, they're, [00:31:00] there's a problematic trend here, Uhhuh. And so you might be in your forties feeling this way. And the problem is gonna show up dramatically in your sixties.

And so this is something else that like, you have to stand back and be like, this is not a normal way of being a human. So we have to ask that question. But you might be somebody who's like, no, but I ate like six eggs and like you, you tell me your breakfast, and it's like this huge breakfast. And it's like, okay, well that kind of makes sense that like you're, you're not hungry.

You know? Maybe it's more like three o'clock kind of situation. Sure. So just for people listening, if you are the giant breakfast person that might be going on, but I think that we can't, we. It's almost like this badge of honor sometimes of like eating less. I see this also in like, um, you know, with populations as they're aging, where they're just like, we only need like to eat this much food.

And it's so little and I'm like, um, meanwhile your hair is snapping off. 

Liz Wolfe: Your nails are not growing. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Yeah. And it may, and it's, [00:32:00] it makes me really concerned because I'm like, you're, if you as an organism are requiring less and less like food, you're not expending as much energy in your state of being.

Mm-hmm. Like we might be looking at a survival issue here. Yeah. Like this is, um, and, and I bring this up because, um, there is a lot in the longevity research of like eating less calories and how, you know, that's gonna support your telomeres and, and do all of those like, wonderful things. But then we have to look at that and it's not just about less calories, it's also about more nutrient density.

Yeah. And I think when that research comes out and people talk about it, people are always like, oh. So I just need to eat like one meal a day. And I'm like, no, you need to not eat highly palatable, ultra processed food that is super calorically dense and nutrient devoid. Yes. Like actually, when you're eating like lots of vegetables three times a day, you're taking in less calories, but you're giving yourself tons of nutrients.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. Well, and I think that is the, that's the pickle, right? We [00:33:00] have highly palatable, extremely calorically dense foods. Mm-hmm. On every corner, in every pantry, everywhere there is a problem of supply. And also when we look at how our bodies operate. Our bodies are actually doing what they're supposed to do when they're driving us to eat those things.

Absolutely. Our, you mentioned willpower earlier. Yeah, and I think this is a good detour. Our bodies, I understand the concept of willpower. I understand how people use it, but our bodies actually are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing when they're driving us to crave certain things. Mm-hmm. To seek food, to want to eat that highly palatable food that is extremely dense in calories for a very quick, you know, a quick hit.

And it makes sense because our bodies are wise. The problem is the availability of that food. Mm-hmm. That's, that's not our fault, but it is certainly the pickle that we're in where we do have to sort of design our lives, design how we eat with an [00:34:00] awareness that we are going to want those things because our bodies are working the way they're supposed to work.

Mm-hmm. We just need to. Stack other choices ahead of those, you know, possibilities to make them a little bit less, um, dangerous, I guess I would say. Yeah. But that's the ancestral perspective. That stuff was not available. But would a caveman have eaten that cupcake? Hell fricking yes. Yes. Every time. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah.

Well, I think that's important for people to understand the biological drive, to get the most nutrient dense foods that, that was set up as. This is going to be the hyper palatable things, right? Mm-hmm. The fruit is amazing. Like it tastes so great anymore. Yeah. And it's because not just the carbohydrates, but it is full of polyphenols and antioxidants, all these things that you needed, uh, sucking out bone marrow.

Mm-hmm. Like super calorically dense. Right. Also super nutrient dense, like eating the fat of animals. So the food chemists. [00:35:00] They knew exactly what they were doing when they designed ultra processed food. And we now see them being like, we're gonna override ozempic with this. I'm like, oh my God, how evil can you be?

Like, why? What does that board meeting look like? I know, right? Like, oh man, Ozempic is cutting into our Doritos purchase. Yeah. Like we need to like reformulate this, but you need a new chemical. But I think what you hit on is so important for people to understand. Not a moral failing. Not a lack of willpower.

It is that. Food scientists understand the science of your biology, and then they made sure they designed food that would make you be unable to resist consuming it. Yeah. And that I think is just so important for people to understand because I think so often it comes down to like, oh my God, I'm such a failure.

Or why is it that I, I feel this way? And it's because biologically speaking, you are supposed to, and some group of scientists in a lab decided to manipulate you with this. Mm-hmm. And so if you've been manipulated, congratulations on being a human [00:36:00] in an environment where other humans don't care about you.

If they can make a dollar like Yeah. And that's the reality. And so. There has to be though a pallet reset. A lot of times when people have been consuming and, and of course we have to recognize like food deserts exist. Yes. Accessibility to kitchens exist. Like this is not something to shame anybody about this, but if you are like, I want to make this like switch, there is a period of time of where your pallet does have to adjust.

We know this, like what you eat in your pregnancy can dictate what your child will eat. What you feed your toddler can dictate how they're gonna be set up to eat in their life because their, their palate gets trained. And so if your palate has been trained in that way, there is a period of time where it's like no is only gonna tell you that the carrot is better than the carrot cake to your brain.

Your brain is like, this character is amazing, but your cells are like the carrot though, the, let me tell you about the carrot. 

Liz Wolfe: Yes. Well, I think this is a really good point. This idea of a reset and that's where, that's where a plan, somebody else's plan that [00:37:00] you. Adopt that you leverage becomes really useful.

Mm-hmm. I mean, you have, I know you have like, uh, reset plans on your website. I have some as well. It's like that is when you can kind of give yourself over to someone else and say, this sounds like it makes sense. Yeah. Let me give this a try for two weeks. You can sustain that for a couple weeks. I know.

I'm not going to eat that. And give yourself some rules, give yourself some boundaries. Mm-hmm. As you work to affect more balance in the force. I have. I actually, I know you and I are both Star Wars fans. I have a whole reference section. Yes. Okay, good. I've got a whole section of my metabolism course. It's like balance in the force, like this is what we are going for.

Mm-hmm. Balance between the macronutrients, balance of nutrients in general, balance of fibers, balance of other plant compounds that also affect metabolism and insulin function and all of that anthocyanins, all the good stuff that comes, by the way, from carbs. All of that that's useful. We get a plan together and we follow that plan for a couple of weeks.

We reset the palate and now we can start making more conscious [00:38:00] decisions versus just operating from a place of desperation or kind of misdirected instinct. Mm-hmm. You know? 

Dr. Brighten: Well, and as you're saying this plan and having rules, I think sometimes people, you know, they're like, oh, rules. Yes. How, uh, this is more like guidelines and I think this is important for people to understand that odds are you didn't get home ec odds are you didn't get quality nutrition education.

Yeah. Odds are you were never given any of the tools by design to actually know how to feed yourself, how to fuel yourself, how to fill your best in your body. And that's where a framework is really helpful. Yeah. Because I mean, the same, you, you and I, we both have nutrition backgrounds. Like we don't come, like what do they always teach us?

There is a framework, there is a plan, there is a way of understanding things and that is how you start the process of your relationship with food and starting to understand. What actually works for you, what's true for you. And it is always something like, it can literally be within two weeks of you changing your diet to be more [00:39:00] nutrient dense.

That people are like, I have so much energy, I have no brain fog. I'm sleeping so much better. Like, things start to shift that quickly. Yeah. 'cause what you're doing is giving your body the nutrients it actually needs to, to thrive and do what it needs to do. I always think about things like. How we'll see people on the internet that are like, you don't need to do, like, you don't need to eat anything special to detox your liver detoxes anyways.

And I'm like to that, I'm always like, Hmm. And how are your kidneys doing? Not drinking water, like how's that working out? You need particular B vitamins, you need amino acids, you need certain nutrients to run your detox pathways. Yep. Just like you need certain nutrients to build your hormones, to build your neurotransmitters, to do all of these things.

And when we're not consuming those nutrients, that's gonna have a negative effect on our body. Yeah. It's 

Liz Wolfe: a weird breed of denialism like that, that our bodies don't actually need anything. Yeah. To run the system. We, they just are, you know, self-sufficient. They just run themselves. That is not the case.

[00:40:00] Wildly irresponsible, I think to even like suggest that we don't need. Improved nutrition mm-hmm. In order to make our bodies run optimally. That just seems really obvious. But we, I mean, we've talked about this, the whole like, old guard dying off. Yeah. Like, they're not gonna go down without a fight, which is fine.

Like we're, we're ready. Like we're, we're taking 'em down. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Brighten: I wanna talk, you, we've, we've talked about like the eating one meal of day and then kind of that restrictive eating. Do you think the way that intermittent fasting is being really pushed on women is just another stressor? 

Liz Wolfe: Yes.

Unequivocally yes. And I think that we need to look at this as a function of time. Mm-hmm. Right. As I said before, anything works in the short term and anything works once it tends to be just the reality. And I think women especially will start intermittent fasting. They'll start basically skipping breakfast, if not as a.

Uh, kind of a secret way to cut calories. I mean, I get that. Mm-hmm. I just think that narrative is so powerful with us, eighties and nineties babies. [00:41:00] The narrative of like, calories are everything. Yeah. And we need to eat less. If we want to fill in the blank, whatever it is, lose weight, be healthier.

Sometimes we conflate all of those things together so that narrative is so strong that we're still kind of like. Secretly looking for ways to cut calories. Mm-hmm. And eat a little bit less and whatever. And I think that does work. Whatever work means to you. I think we can kind of guess what works means.

Generally it's weight loss, but in that short period of time, yeah. Maybe you see some results. But what we don't think about is 3, 4, 5, 6 weeks down the line when we are struggling again. Yeah. We don't think to look back and go, oh, I did this intermittent fasting thing for a week or two weeks, or whatever.

I wonder if that is affecting me in a negative way now. Mm-hmm. And it does. There are hormones that become dysfunctional. Kiss Pepin is one of them, I think a lot of people haven't heard of. But also just in general, the signals that we are sending to our body about whether or not we have the resources [00:42:00] to, to survive can be very profound.

Some people are more sensitive than others, but yes, it's absolutely a stressor, even if we don't think it is. And we tend to think if we're seeing those results, if we're leaning out or whatever it is we're going for, in that short term, we're like, yay, it's working. But we don't think about what's happening Six weeks down the line.

We're not turning around and blaming, blaming the intermittent and fasting. We'll probably blame the carbs. Mm-hmm. Whatever carbs we decided to eat because our body initiated that cascade of beautiful reactions to try to ensure that we don't starve again. Yeah. You know? So, yes, I think it is. And I do think, you know, if people want to compress their eating window a little bit fine, stop eating a couple of hours before bedtime, which I understand is hard.

I think people have a deep fear that if they start eating, they're just gonna keep eating. Mm-hmm. And that's another thing to wrestle with. Um, that has nothing to do with whether or not fasting is good for you, hormonally or not, or whether or not it's another stressor or not. [00:43:00] But if you do wanna have a smaller eating window, still eat that breakfast.

First thing. I'm actually a big fan of two breakfasts. Hobbit style. Totally. Yes. Oh my God. I love you. Yes, love that. But stop eating a couple hours before bed and then you'll be fasting all night long, which is when you're supposed to be fasting anyway. If you wanna fast more, just sleep more if you can. I know I probably can.

A lot of moms probably can't do that, but we do, you know, initiate all of those good things around fasting when we're sleeping. Mm-hmm. Like we're doing, we autophagy is happening while we're sleeping. So you can. Stack your day in a way that does leverage those benefits without actually putting yourself into such a major stress mode.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. No, I agree with that form of intermittent fasting. It's something I've always recommended to patients unless they're having like blood sugar issues and Sure. The night, and they, uh, are struggling there. They only wanna do like food closer to bed. But, and, and a big reason that I've recommended the intermittent fasting of about [00:44:00] 12 hours, and I'll explain what that is to people in just a second, is because of the migrating motor complex of the gut sweeping things through and how it helps digestion.

Mm-hmm. But also as you were saying, there's like all of these other benefits. So what's 12 hours? Um, okay, if you're gonna eat breakfast at 8:00 AM in the morning, then you're not gonna eat after 8:00 PM at night. Mm-hmm. That's totally doable. And when I. Talked about that. People are like, oh, you know, intermittent fasting's all bad.

I'm like, most of us do it. Most of us are doing a 12 hour window. Yeah. At night. I mean, and you might even be doing more like a 14 hour window at night and it's because you're closing the kitchen and then you're eating, you just eat breakfast. When you eat breakfast. It's, it's a no brainer. When you explain that to people, a lot of people are like, oh wait, yeah, yeah.

I'm in intermittent fasting this whole time. Good job. Yeah, that's great. All of that is really great for you. I think it is problematic when we start looking at things where it's like, oh, well you're gonna only eat for eight hours out of the entire day. Yeah. Or you know, we're gonna skip a day and not [00:45:00] eat.

And as you were saying, and I really want to highlight this 'cause I think it's so, so important. What you did six weeks ago is affecting your hormones. Now this is where people struggle because they'll undergo. So like, um, I had a dog that passed away abruptly, unexpectedly, and my next period was fine, but my period.

Following that was horrifically painful. There were all of these problems that, because of the stressor that happened six weeks before and that's where I think we get confused. Christmas is the other thing to pay attention to y'all. Christmas drinking lots of alcohol, right? The holidays we were holiday you celebrate and usually, usually happens at the end of the year and we eat tons of sweetss and we deviate from our diet and we travel a lot and we sometimes hang out with people that we really don't like and it's super, super stressful.

Um, and you don't sleep as much and you drink alcohol and like all of these things. And then come the new year, like January, February, you're like, why am I having the worst PMS of my life? Why did my [00:46:00] periods hurt so bad? What is going on? It's because of what happened in November and December. And so. I think it's such an important thing for people to understand what you said there is that if you're gonna do these things, it's such a beast, right?

To write stuff down. But keeping track is very interesting. You as your own experiment is way more valuable than a randomized control trial of cherry picked individuals out of the population. Yep. Like if you're going to, if you're gonna opt into your own experiment, record the data. And it doesn't have to be that compliated.

You can put it in an iPhone. Heck, you could probably just like lot be like, chat GPD, print me out something. Oh, you're so right. Like, and just do a checklist on your fridge and just see what is going on there. You know, you brought up the hormonal changes and you were like, not most people don't even know about this hormone.

Talk to us more about that. Yeah. Well, 'cause Pepin is 

Liz Wolfe: basically like a precursor to our sex hormone cascade. Mm-hmm. And this is. Much a profound thing for women, like we're already dealing with [00:47:00] changes to our sex hormones, so what we don't wanna do is send our body more signals that it is not safe to reproduce.

Mm-hmm. Because that is kind of the height of the safety signal. Yeah. It's like. You can ovulate. We're okay. We have, like you were talking about, I think in the episode previously, we have whatever it is, community. We have nutrition, we have all of those ingredients that we need to be able to reproduce, which is kind of like that height of biological safety.

It's a thing that really, I. Can only happen if we are safe or it can only happen functionally if we are safe. And to ensure that our hormonal cascade from like what's going on our on, in our brain, to our hypothalamus, to our pituitary, to our thyroid, and all of the hormones that are produced in that entire cascade from top to bottom if they are not able to function in a.

Safe environment in a safe milieu. Mm-hmm. It is not going to happen functionally. You're going to see problems all the way down the line. So if you're not, for example, if you're not ovulating, there could be many, many reasons why. [00:48:00] One of those reasons is the body does not feel like it is safe to do so.

And you know, when we see like athletes with Hypothalmic Amenorrhea mm-hmm. That is a nutritional, like a direct nutritional and, um, lifestyle consequence, I guess, of those choices and what you're eating and how much you're eating and the body fat that you have and the signals from leptin to your brain, all of that.

There's a whole mil you going on there. But we know that when you are not safe, the end of the line is like you're not gonna ovulate and that is going to whack out those kind of end stage hormones. Mm-hmm. I guess you would say, like we thinking of estrogen and progesterone, but there's a whole cascade that happens before we even get there that is informing whether or not we can.

Have that last moment, that last step in the Yes, we're good to go. Mm-hmm. Like, it's just that, it's like we're a go, you know? It's like a pilot. Like, we're go, we're out, we're ready to go. The plane is ready, we can take off. And that's the way I like to look at it. Like, do we have clearance to take off or not?

And in general, when we're [00:49:00] fasting or when we're restricting, the answer is no. Carbs themselves are involved in the generation of thyroid hormone. Mm-hmm. So we hear all kinds of talk about thyroid issue, and that's just one, one of the things that carbohydrates can do in the body. One of those signals that we're sending, um, around stress and stress tolerance that affects our hormones.

And I totally went off, I'm sorry on a tangent. Did I go on a tangent? No, I asked you about hormones. Perfect. I don't even remember the original question. Yeah, 

Dr. Brighten: yeah. No, I asked you specifically about the hormones you brought, um, ovulation, but we've been talking about perimenopause. Um, and then subsequently what comes.

If you live long enough and that's what we want you to do, that's why we have this podcast, uh, is menopause. So as you say, like, okay, we don't have enough carbs, we lose the safety signal. You know, I think it's roughly the research has said like 60 to 80 grams of carbs. Mm-hmm. When you start to drop below that women can lose their period and what are they losing?

They're losing ovulation. But what does it look like for the late stage perimenopause menopause woman? She doesn't have her period anymore [00:50:00] to gauge. 

Liz Wolfe: It actually is at that point it does get more difficult. I don't think that's news to anybody because we do know that estrogen interacts with carbohydrate tolerance.

But again, we also know that carbohydrates. Are also part of your thyroid hormone cascades like, so it's this, it feels like a paradox. It feels like, well, I can't win for losing. Like I don't have the carb tolerance that I had when my estrogen was running just fine. But I also need these carbohydrates in order for the rest of my hormones to run.

Mm-hmm. You know, properly. And so that's really hard. So what I have seen, and this is not something that I've studied officially, but what I have seen in my people is that really we start out with, we start slow, we bring the carbs back. Mm-hmm. And in general, just adding back like fruit and vegetables, like starchy vegetables.

We do fine. I think that people are so, again, afraid to even try that we almost kind of psych ourselves out. Um, and then we're just like way off the rails over [00:51:00] here, you know, eating cupcakes and whatever it is that falling off the wagon feeling. Mm-hmm. But starting slow number one, starting with like an on-ramp, like a glucose regulation OnRamp.

And that's different for different people. If you're coming off long-term low carb and long-term keto, I'm sure you know as much about this as I do, if not more, you may be dealing with higher circulating free fatty acids. Mm-hmm. So these can block your insulin receptors indirectly. And I believe there's some research going that can do that directly, but I, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but we may have to work on clearing some of those free fatty acids from the body in order to allow your insulin, um, receptors to work properly.

Mm-hmm. And so it's sometimes we have to step back and step back and step back and just take it one step at a time. Whether that's working on your carb tolerance. Working on clearing those free fatty acids from the body, working on flooding your body with more nutrition. So it's actually working better on a cellular level.

But in general, I have found that at [00:52:00] least working to improve your carb tolerance over time is well worth it, and ends generally ends well. Yeah. 

Dr. Brighten: How 

Liz Wolfe: can people identify? They have poor carb tolerance. Uh, if your blood sugar is whacked out, if you've ever been like, I've got, I'm crashing. Mm-hmm. I'm totally crashing at three o'clock in the afternoon.

I need my coffee. And not only do I need coffee, but I need like a double latte, extra caffeine, extra sugar. And you're really, really struggling around that time. I mean, those quintessential blood sugar issues where you're getting hangry, um, where you're just not able to function without eating all the time.

And again, there is a distinction between full and fueled. There's also a distinction between fueled and hangry and dysfunctional. Yeah. So I wanna make that really clear. There is nuance there and you're the best at nuance. So that's why I think this is such a powerful platform for really discussing it.

But when you are dealing with that. Oftentimes you'll need to step back and not necessarily blame the carbs right away. It may be that you [00:53:00] have a need to pull back on the fat a little bit. Mm-hmm. It may be that you need to increase the protein. Most people do. There are very few people that are actually getting enough protein because however much we're supposed to eat now is like 7,000 grams a day.

It's impossible. So a lot of times it's playing a little bit with the other macronutrients to ensure that you have balance across all of your systems. Mm-hmm. So that you can actually function hour to hour during your day in a way that is not like life, uh, causing problems in your life at three o'clock in the afternoon.

So we all know that kind of like blood sugar, high and low, all of that feeling like crap in general. Sleeping poorly, waking up in the middle of the night. You have like a cortisol blood sugar dysregulation issue there. If you struggle to wake up in the morning, then you've probably got some blood sugar dysregulation going on.

It's all of that. Mm-hmm. So. That's when we start to play with the macronutrients a little bit, I think. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Uh, you brought up like how much protein we're supposed to eat so much. [00:54:00] Um, here's the thing is that as we talk about ultra processed food, when I don't like to focus on what people need to take out, I like to focus on what they need to be bringing in.

And the reality is, is if you eat the amount of protein and fiber that you need to get in the day, there is no room for to process foods. You're like, I cannot fit anymore when it comes to women in perimenopause who are looking to put on muscle mass. Yeah. How much protein do you recommend typically? Oh man, I, 

Liz Wolfe: okay.

There's the right answer to this question and there's my answer to this question. The answer I'm, so you're gonna give us the wrong answer, so it it's the answer I'm supposed to give. Okay. Go. Okay. Is a gram per pound of ideal body weight. Yeah. I don't think that that's wrong. I just think it's unattainable for most people in the long term.

And, you know, this is, I don't mean this to be political, it's just an analogy, but I, I think it's interesting when people would say, what's the best vaccine to get? It's the one that you have access to not making a statement about vaccines. I'm just saying like, the best protein strategy is the one that you [00:55:00] can actually execute mm-hmm.

Consistently over the long term. And I think for a lot of people, for me in particular, I would need like 150 grams of protein every day. I can do that, um, if I'm really good. Mm-hmm. If I'm really nailing it and I'm, um, you know, I'm on it, I'll usually do it with a couple of protein shakes thrown in there as well.

So it can be hard, I think most, and I can't do the, um, the translation from kilograms to, um. Kilograms to, what am I thinking of? Pounds, kilograms per pounds, but, uh, 0.8 grams per kilogram. Mm-hmm. In the scientific literature on athletes seems to be the kind of gold standard. Mm-hmm. So, I don't know what that is.

It's, no, it's 1.8 kilograms per. Pounds. So I think that evens out to like 0.8 grams per pound. So 

Dr. Brighten: 1.8 grams per kilogram kilogram is 2.2. 

Liz Wolfe: Yes. Per uh, per pound. And I think that ends up being 0.8 grams per pound. I'll put some for everybody. [00:56:00] Yes, we need a calculator. Math is not, I need to be able to like be writing it down, but I think 0.8 grams mm-hmm.

Per pound of ideal body weight is an okay compromise. And I also think people are okay a little bit less than that. Yeah. And I don't think we're gonna be able to do it every single day, but I think as long as we make our best efforts and leverage tools like protein shakes, if you can tolerate them.

Mm-hmm. Essential amino acid supplements, if you can tolerate them, I think those are good strategies because we really do need a good amount of protein. But it is. Really freaking hard. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. And when it comes to protein shakes, everyone that is processed food and I want, so whenever people are like, all processed food is bad, I'm like, do you eat protein shakes?

And they're like, yes. I'm like, that's processed food. Do you drink collagen? That's processed food. So not all is created equal. Yeah. And I'm with you. It's um, so because I am pregnant at 44 is very high risk for preeclampsia. Yeah. One way that you can mitigate that risk is with protein, I have to get a minimum of 110 grams of protein a [00:57:00] day.

And it is literally like a full-time job some days. Um, I have like just broken down to like, um, buying Costco pre-made hard boiled eggs. 'cause first trimester, I cannot peel a hard boiled egg that smells horrible. I'm like, how can you, I could, I don't think I could eat a hard boiled egg my whole pregnancy.

You know what's crazy is that I. And I had given this advice as well, and in my two pregnancies that went to term, I was like, carbs, as soon as you wake up. And that helps with nausea. And this pregnancy, because I was so set out on my protein intake, I started with like, you know, yogurt first thing in the morning, or hard boiled eggs.

And I found that. High protein in the morning helped with my morning sickness. Yeah. And I'm like, I did it wrong. I did it wrong this whole time. And yet we still recommend like just do carbs 'cause they're really easy to digest and all of that. Yeah. And I'm like, something's not working there. Protein actually is working better so.

I appreciate you breaking down that nuance. 'cause I think, you know, um, I, I want people to [00:58:00] understand that the formula will be different as well, depending on what you're trying to do. If you're like, I really am trying to put on muscle mass, then you may need to have more. If you're trying to prevent preeclampsia, yeah, you may need more protein If you are elderly with sarcopenic obesity, we might be bringing in more protein, but I think right now we're seeing just so much protein talk on the internet where it's just like, and then I'll see these people who are like, this what I eat to get enough protein.

I'm like, bro, where's your fiber? Yes. Like, do you poop? I don't even know. Yes. People like to argue with me on the internet though, with like, well they like to argue, but it's not really an argument. 'cause I just don't engage because people who are like, there's no, and someone will comment this, swear to God, it's gonna be there.

Uh, there's no reason to eat fiber ever. And I'm like, yep. You know, the decade's worth. Okay, so that's like saying there's no reason to exercise. We have so much scientific literature to support this, that like. If you're just gonna make that statement Yeah. But you can't bring me a study. And they're like, well, I didn't eat fiber and I felt great.

And I'm [00:59:00] like, yeah, anytime you have like, digestive issues going off and, and we restrict a whole lot of food and pull away with tons of food groups, yes. Things do get better, but that's not sustainable. Yeah. And also it's not how your gut works, but Okay. That's, that's the low carb people too. And not all low 

Liz Wolfe: carb people.

Yeah. But I didn't eat carb. I don't eat carbs and I'm great. Mm-hmm. Uh, I can't have this conversation with you 'cause it's the internet and it's, there's no nuance there. Yeah. But yes, people will come with those experiences and even though it, not even, it's just not a study necessarily that we even need.

It's like, does this make sense mechanistically? Mm-hmm. Like, does it make sense that this food with all of these vital compounds and micronutrients and macronutrient, like we, doesn't it make sense that we need that thing? Yeah. Why? Why? Just why? And this idea of dietary balance. It really is about all three.

Macronutrients. Mm-hmm. They all contain not just the macros, but these [01:00:00] other compounds and nutrients that we need. And where are you, where are we getting those? Yeah. From nowhere. From nowhere. And, but you can't argue with people on the internet. 

Dr. Brighten: It's, um, it's interesting to me because I think also, you know, having been in the nutrition field for over 25 years is that people are like, oh, it's all about macros.

It's about micronutrients, it's about polyphenols now, and all this stuff. And I'm like. Humble yourself. There's so much we don't even understand about food. Yeah. Like maybe part of the benefit is the type of bug that crawls on these berries that you end up eating. Yeah. Or like part of the benefit is the yeast that like grows on this per particular thing.

Like there's so much we actually don't even understand in nutrition and to think, so, you know, we've got the people that are always like, unless it's a randomized control trial, like no. Uh, and then you've got the people that are like, well, because it's science and doctors said it, then I reject it. No. And I'm like, there's a whole lot of like, just eat the things that your body [01:01:00] needs that could just happen, happen in this conversation.

Liz Wolfe: Well, to the, your point about there's so much we don't know. I cannot remember when the, oh gosh. The big, um, research program on. On the gut microbiome. Yeah. When that was initiated, I think in the late nineties. I know. And we thought we'd solve everything and we thought we figured it all. There is so much we still don't know Yeah.

About the bacteria in the gut about what it does when we feed it the right things. Mm-hmm. Like the fibers that you feed, your gut bacteria enable your gut bacteria to create like anti-inflammatory substances that protect. The gut lining. Yeah. And we're just finding that out. Mm-hmm. And to think that like this, we didn't all kind of co-evolve, like leaning on these different natural resources, the fiber rich foods, the protein rich foods, the animals, all of it.

It just, it seems so strange to me. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Yeah. I wanna go back to the clearing free fatty acids because I think that's something that's probably a totally new concept to people. Yeah. And [01:02:00] you were talking about having these higher levels of free fatty acids in your blood and maybe needing to clear those.

Can you explain more about what that is and how people you go about helping people clear that? Yeah. 

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. Really that is a result of dietary fatty acids and dietary fat is not bad. Mm-hmm. But I do think, and I've been witness to this and I've been a part of it over the last 10, 15 years, this dramatic increase in the fat content of our diet.

So it's not really a surprise that our systems are having to grapple with these fatty acids in circulation. And it's really a question of. For me, I do like to put it into historical perspective where fat in general, just as a macronutrient, was one that was in very kind of low supply. It's a very precious commodity.

Mm-hmm. At no point in history have we had buckets of coconut oil and you know, a giant bag of shelled nuts. I mean, if you have ever tried to get at a walnut on your own, it is damn near impossible. [01:03:00] So these resources, while incredibly dense in calories, which is why we are kind of programmed to seek them.

Mm-hmm. The supply that we have had, I think is outpaced our body's actual demand for them. So in no way am I suggesting that fat is not a healthy macronutrient and we don't need it. I'm just suggesting that I think at this point we kind of need to bring it back into bounds. So whether that's. You know, people like me to break it down into like a ratio or percentage, 30% of calories from protein, 40% from carbs, 30% from fat.

Mm-hmm. Maybe a little bit more from fat. Might be a good place to start to then assess how you're doing and how you feel if people really need that number. But in general, just kind of backing off, um, the fat content of your diet will enable some of these fatty acids to depart from circulation. Mm-hmm.

Um, it also tends to, folks that struggle to digest like fiber oftentimes I have found will actually their digestion will improve. Mm-hmm. When they cut back on the fat a little bit. 

Dr. Brighten: Um, and their [01:04:00] gallbladder's not like, please, yes, stop making me work so hard. Please God, gimme a break. 

Liz Wolfe: Um, so there's that.

What I know is there's not a lot of DIY type of ways to do that, aside from time and maybe a Vitamin E supplement. And that goes to some of the, my favorite people are the eccentric biologists. And, uh, that is a kinda a Ray Pete thing. Mm-hmm. Who is, he's somebody who actually was the first person to, um, talk about, or that I really understood the importance of progesterone.

That's kind of where I learned mm-hmm. All of that from. And then that sent me on a deep dive Found you found some other resources that nepro, um, doctors, which have been really helpful to me. But, so that's kind of where I picked that up from. And that's really the only advice that I've got for folks is, is time and good nutrition.

Mm-hmm. Where else are you gonna get your vitamin E? 

Dr. Brighten: What lifestyle factors do you feel really move the needle for women in midlife? Yeah. Versus those that are just noise 

Liz Wolfe: Ooh, um, noises that intermittent [01:05:00] fasting. Fasting in general. Carb restriction. Uh, chronic cardio and bootcamp classes. Mm. Those are big ones.

This is the Chronic Cardio Bootcamp classes. Like when you're going in and you're like slinging weights around for a full hour and you're just laid out flat. You are just dead. It feels good when you're late. When you leave, you're like, I got a great workout in. Yeah. But it's something that flattens you in that way.

Just think of that as full on stress mode. Mm-hmm. Full on stress response exercise is supposed to stress you. That's how you build back better. But if you spend an hour breaking yourself down and just punishing yourself sometimes for eating, like, let's be real. I think a lot of us ended up doing a lot of that type of fitness to punish ourselves for eating or to earn our food, which I like to think we actually need to earn our exercise by fueling it.

Mm-hmm. Versus the other way around. But if you're really flattening yourself in that way, think of it as like you are being chased by a tiger and. It's not stopping, like you're not finding, [01:06:00] you're either supposed to get eaten when the tiger's chasing you, or you're supposed to find safety. You're not supposed to be perpetually chased by this animal for your entire life.

And that's what that kind of fitness is doing to women. So I do love the idea that resistance training, I'm a certified personal trainer. I think that is foundational and so, so important. I also think one of the, and this is a bit of a tangent, one of the things we're missing for longevity purposes, which is I hope why most folks are attempting to live their best lives so they can be here and be as healthy as possible for as long as possible.

I hope we've ditched that calorie counting narrative of you have to look a certain way. I hope we're doing this to be really healthy for the long haul. Mm-hmm. But I think one of the pieces we're missing. From a fitness perspective is just generalized athleticism and walk that back to like everyday athleticism where we're actually training balance and hand-eye coordination.

Yeah. And an ability to move laterally and in different planes of motion, [01:07:00] mobility, that type of thing. Like that stuff that really builds upon itself to keep you healthy and mobile and moving. I think that's super important because how many of us have seen, you know, images of like bodybuilders people that only resistance train?

Like they can barely, yeah, they can barely turn, like turn their heads. Yeah, they can barely move. So that stuff, yes, is very important. But if you are taking the time to get to the gym, maybe instead of doing an hour of weight training, maybe you're doing 45 minutes, really focused on resistance training and 15 minutes of athleticism, balance, mobility, that type of thing.

And that will take you. So far, and we haven't even talked about circulation. That is another factor that is huge in overall health metabolism. Longevity is just your vasculature. Yeah. Your circulation, your nutrient delivery. And that is really gonna do that for you. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think that's really important.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Everything you just described is like how we played as kids. Yes. And then we forgot how to play. And I think when [01:08:00] you'll hear people say like, kids keep you young, and that's one of the things mm-hmm. Like my toddler being like, you have to, I want you to play with me this way on the floor. And sometimes I'm like, oh, this is so boring.

Yeah. And then I'm like, no, but like you only get so many years with him wanting to play with you, so just do it. Um, but there's, I know even I'm like thinking about Legos and like building Legos. Yeah. And like all of these things that like, I think we, um, and for people are like what Legos hand eye coordination people that I'm talking about.

Fine motor skills. Um, but we take for granted all of these things and we forget. To play. Yeah. And, and to celebrate our body in this way. Um, second Breakfast Hobbit. Oh yeah. Why you brought it up. And I'm like, wait, we gotta go back to that. Interesting. People are gonna be like, why did she say two breakfasts?

Can I 

Liz Wolfe: have two breakfasts? Okay. Part of the reason why is that when you do your calculations around protein, and I'm a big fan of this, is learning how many calories you actually need, because it's probably more than you think. Mm-hmm. There are simple calculators [01:09:00] on the internet. Calculate your TDEE, your total daily energy expenditure.

Better yet, go to a place that does like DEXA SKU and RMR resting metabolic rate. Mm-hmm. It's very easy. Just put on a mask and you do your RMR breath test and you find out what your baseline calorie burn is and you figure out how many calories you burn in a day or as I like to look at it, how much energy you create in a day and.

Do your calculations and see mm-hmm how much you actually need to eat to fuel your body. And for me, that tends to be four meals. So I need to break it out over four meals. And the reason I say two breakfast is because when you wake up, especially as a woman, in order to tamp down that morning cortisol response, kind of bring the stress down.

You do need to eat relatively quickly. I think a lot of people are saying now, like, eat within 30 minutes of waking, 30 grams of protein within 30 minutes of waking. So what I'll do is I'll get up and I'll do like a smoothie with whey protein and orange juice, which I know [01:10:00] makes people just tune out immediately.

They're like, you're not supposed to do juice. Well, it's a really quick and easy way to get in a decent amount of carbohydrates. I have good carbohydrate tolerance, so it works for me. Mm-hmm. But I'll do the protein and carbs smoothie. First thing 

Dr. Brighten: I just have to say that, um, I always like chocolate protein powder.

Yeah. So when you said that, I was like, this is the grossest thing I've ever heard. Okay. And then I, you're visualizing having orange chocolate. You were gonna be, you were like, people are gonna be like upset about the orange juice and carbs. I'm like, I'm upset that you're eating those together. And then I was like, wait, wait, wait.

There's not always chocolate whey protein. Chocolate. 

Liz Wolfe: There's, it's vanilla. So it's vanilla whey protein. It's like an orange, I call it orange. Ju didn't judge you over that you, I was just like, what is this flavor profile you have going? We listen and we don't judge. Yes. So that's what I do first thing in the morning to just easily and quickly get the stress response down.

I can't make like a good nutrient dent dense breakfast in 30 minutes. Mm-hmm. It's just not happening. Same. So that's my first breakfast. It's not like a big, giant, crazy breakfast. I'm not making two crazy big meals, but I'll do that first thing. Mm-hmm. Just to [01:11:00] get that protein and the carbs in and buy myself a little bit of time.

So like get the kids off to school to get the morning going, and then I'll fix myself something I really like, like a chicken apple hash with an egg on top or something like that. Yeah. So those are my two breakfasts. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, I'm a double breakfast as well, plus love collagen coffee to start. And people are always like, you know, you see people collagen and coffee is not breakfast.

I'm like, it is my ritual and my routine. Um, and as we talked about on your podcast, me being autistic is like, this has to happen in this order during my day to start my day right is part of my rigidity is like, is coffee and I put the collagen in it, which, you know, I'm usually doing like two scoops. I'm doing close to like 30 grams of collagen in there.

Well, and then I'm making my breakfast and then I'll have a workout and then I do the big breakfast as well. Well, that's perfect. I'm like very much the, the Hobbit style as well. I would rather have two breakfast in the day than ever eat dinner. Like I still eat dinner, but I just think dinner's so boring compared to 

Liz Wolfe: how often breakfast.

It's boring reakfast. And you [01:12:00] gotta think about it. It's like, I want my day to be done and now I still have to think about what I'm making for dinner and it's very irritating. But I'm with you and I think, I don't know, there's just so I, I love that you just. That you'll call it out, but can we stop with the you shouldn't do this crap.

Like, I can't believe we're still doing that. Yeah. We were all doing that in the paleo days. Don't eat corn, don't eat whatever, don't eat chickpeas. Like, can we stop it? It works for you. It is perfectly like healthful. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Everybody shut up. So what's funny is that I have a big neurodivergent community, and so they ha a lot of 'em.

Um, you tell them what to do and they're not gonna do it Uhhuh, uh, at all. And it has to be something more along the lines of like, this might be helpful. And then it's like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm, I'm into that. But if you are like, you should or shouldn't, they're like, watch me. Yeah. Watch me. Um, I wanna talk about muscle as just like this metabolic goldmine.

Yeah. Because yeah, for years women have been told. What have [01:13:00] we been told? Don't take up too much space. Mm-hmm. That's why you need to diet and shrink yourself and be as small as possible. Yeah. And women are under this conception sometimes the misconception I should say, that like they're gonna get bulky or that they should only wanna tone, right?

Mm-hmm. With their little like five pound Jane Fonda like days, right? Like this, we're like eighties babies. Yeah. This is like no fat and get toned and wear a do the adductors and the 

Liz Wolfe: abductors. 

Dr. Brighten: Like Yeah. And but while you wear your like neon Yeah. Green thong leotards. Like, I'm like, I feel like we need this, this imagery.

'cause if you're like Gen Z, you're gonna be like, what? Huh? You're probably wearing that now. No, they're wearing it now with the high socks and all of it. Yeah, totally. Yeah. No, I'm like. We looked pretty. You don't even to work now. You don't work you Ben. And, um, as I wear high socks right now, nevermind. I'm calling myself up.

I haven't done that yet. I want to so bad that I, I feel like, well, I'm wearing boots, 

Liz Wolfe: so that's why. Okay. Fair. I'm wearing it. I, I think it looks kind of cute. They workout girly with their little like [01:14:00] scrunchie socks. I'm like, I invented that. Yeah. And now I 

Dr. Brighten: don't feel like I can do it. You post some images on the internet.

Yeah. But let's go to this like, muscle is a metabolic goldmine conversation. Yes. 

Liz Wolfe: Okay. But I wanna make a little bit of a distinction that I think maybe people need to hear. Maybe this is obvious, but I have a lot of people say to me like, I'm not putting on muscle. I'm working out so hard and I'm not putting on muscle and.

I want people to understand that if you wanna put on muscle, if you wanna add tissue to your body, you have to give your body the additional calories to build that tissue from. Yeah. So there's a big difference between building strength and actually adding muscle. You can strengthen the muscle you already have.

You can improve the quality of your muscle, but improving the quantity can be a little more difficult, especially if you already are eating a good amount of protein. You're already resistance training. Mm-hmm. So there is kind of a genetic, not a genetic cap, but there's definitely like a ceiling where it becomes really hard and requires more of a concerted [01:15:00] effort that might feel disruptive in your life.

I want people to still feel okay, like if they're eating a good amount of protein and they are resistance training and they feel like they're not adding muscle, like you're good. You're doing a great job. There's nothing wrong with what you're doing. The other distinction I wanna make is that a lot of people think of.

Muscle as an additional way to burn more calories. Mm-hmm. And I see this even from the people that I deeply, deeply respect who are talking a lot about resistance training and protein right now. But the reality is for each additional pound of muscle that you add, and it could take, you know, it's a newbie effect again, it could take a full year to add like 10 pounds of muscle.

Mm-hmm. To someone who is not previously well-trained. If you are already well-trained and you're in that space, it's gonna be really difficult to add 10 pounds of muscle. But let's say you're starting from nothing. You start eating all your protein, you start doing resistance training, you might add 10 pounds in a year for each additional pound of muscle.

You are burning six additional calories in the day. Six to 10. Everybody 

Dr. Brighten: hates a snap. I know. I'm so sorry. [01:16:00] They're like 

Liz Wolfe: no added sugar and only six calories a day and only six extra calories. But. But this is the paradigm shift. 'cause it's like, oh, you know, I, it will only get 60 extra calories out of that in a day.

Yeah. But guess what else you're doing? Like you are giving your body so many metabolic benefits from that muscle to your blood glucose control, to your ability to recruit energy. Like there are so many other metabolic benefits to having good quality muscle. Mm-hmm. That, that's what we need to be thinking about.

And really like, who cares about 60 calories? Let's think about all of these other benefits to our immediate health and our longevity. Mm-hmm. That resistance training working out and muscle is gonna provide for us. That's, that's what we need to focus on. So, I'm sorry I took, I put a long tail on that kite.

But I do think it's important to realize that you're not gonna be burning that many more calories. Yeah. If you have additional muscle, but you're gonna be doing all kinds of other things 

Dr. Brighten: Well, and if you consider that we need movement to activate our thyroid hormone, you're gonna be affecting your [01:17:00] metabolism in a positive way.

Yeah. Through that hormone. And we need muscle mass to stay insulin sensitive. Mm-hmm. And so there's a lot of benefits to building muscle outside of just this paradigm of like, I just need to burn more calories in the day. Yeah. Yeah. And not 

Liz Wolfe: just building muscle, but using your muscle. So even if you're not, I think that we're, we get really hung up on this idea of building muscle.

Mm-hmm. Use your muscle, like train it, challenge it in many different ways. Resistance training, athleticism training, which I'm big on, um, as I said before, but just using it like that. And the also the benefits to your circulation, to your nutrient delivery. To the longevity of your vasculature. It's all there.

Your immune system, like your happy hormones, your brain is gonna function better. You're going to be able to, what, what were we talking about so much in the last episode? Your executive function, all of that. There's even like an attention afterglow from exercise that you've talked about that Christine McCarroll has talked about.

So there is nothing [01:18:00] that movement can't do and it's an incredible thing. But burning more calories, it's, it's low on the priority list. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Well, this has been such a fantastic conversation. It's been great. Thank you for making the drive out into the woods to meet, meet with you. My pleasure. Yes, it was a blast.

Thank you so much. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If this is the kind of content you're into, then I highly recommend checking out this.